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Author Topic: 100w House Bulbs  (Read 6119 times)

malcolmfrary

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2009, 12:16:15 PM »

One point regarding 100W bulbs - if you look at the card that the bulb holders come on in B&Q and similar places, you will have difficulty finding one that admits to being suitable for more than 60W.  This has been the case for a great many years, so unless the fittings are not the composite bakelite and brass type, not being able to get 100W bulbs is probably a hidden benefit.
I do have the strong feeling that the first generation of low energy bulbs are a come-on to get us all blinking like owls to the benefit of opticians and line the pockets of disposal companies - roll on LEDs. 
Lampshades that clip over proper bulbs don't fit properly on the wiggly glass tubes, so thats more unwanted expense replacing items that have years of use left in them.  I suspect that the people who are charged with making these decisions for us have the kind of lifestyle that insists they change such items at six month intervals because we are paying them far too much and they can therefore afford it.
A thought - if the low energy types are used in a workshop environment, do they have the same strobing effect with rotating tools as tubes?
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oldiron

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 12:26:01 PM »

Quote
I thought the continent was on a lower voltage than us in the U.K.

Only marginally. In th UK the nominal voltage is 240, on the Continent it is 220 but I think the actual figure fluctuates around those and for most purposes appliances are interchangable. Some parts of the world including the US have 110 volts. That is why portable appliances like shavers and chargers now automatically sense the input voltage and adapt accordingly.

  You can include Canada in that 110 volt domestic voltage too. In fact our frequency is different from yours too. We run at 60 cycles while you folks run at 50 cycles.

John
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roycv

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2009, 01:00:54 PM »

Hi all, I can see this must be a problem for more than a few.  Some years ago we went over to a 100htz. refresh rate TV and my headaches went.  The screen I am using now is about 80 htz and I am OK with that as well.
regards Roy
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Bryan Young

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 01:18:34 PM »

Glad this subject came up. I know the arguments for fridges and ovens and so on, but I have yet to see any reference to "reflector" bulbs and spotlights. If these are phased out then it will cause a lot of hassle.....and how will photographic studios etc get on?
Just asking. BY.
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stallspeed

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 02:44:17 PM »

A couple of points concerning these b****y lamps.
..............
Scottish Hydro are giving out complimentary Philips fluorescent bulbs so they can't have heard about power factor. :-)
I tried them.They took an age to light up and produce half the output of white leds.

.....A footnote: re supply voltages. These were changed (on paper) to comply with the European standards. The actual voltages supplied by the companies are unchanged. After all, who could afford to physically alter every network in the country when we still have areas with non-standard systems in operation after over eighty years of standardised voltages?     
Strange you should say that.I swore my soldering iron took longer to heat up and my kettle took longer to boil when I came home after a new year trip.

For those that asked about strobing,I don't see a big laminated iron core so they won't have a 100Hz flicker http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/lowbulb.html

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fooman2008

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2009, 03:30:03 PM »

I went through my school years with migraines, and it wasn't until I moved out of the house and joined the Navy (and lived in a WWII era barracks) that I discovered a sensitivity to the 60 cycle strobe effect of florescent bulbs.  The big tubes are the worst but the new compact ones can set it off.  I was listening to the radio last summer and they said that England was outlawing regular (filament) light bulbs and that those suffers of migraines were already complaining and writing their representatives.  My house has at least one regular bulb in each fixture and that seems to mitigate it for me.  The three big tubes in the Kitchen rarely get turned on since I prefer lower light levels for almost everything and a dozen 40 watt, 4 foot long tubes is over kill for tow minutes in the kitchen to get an orange.
Another thought is that the long tubes have mercury and cadmium in the tubes so they must be recycled, not multiply demand for them by a factor of about four (conservatively) accounting for the longer life, and that is still a hell of a lot of pollution!
Foo
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Bee

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2009, 03:32:09 PM »

I've never owned a 100W bulb. Mostly use 40-60W and an anglepoise where I need it. 4 of them in the workshop.
Voltage. It's higher in the countryside as the lower load doesn't cause the voltage drop. Where I grew up it used to be we were asked 'town or country' when buying a bulb but now they are all the same and burn out quicker.

The common voltage  'grid' is fairly recent - some of you must remember the changeover. There is a good article somewhere in Model Engineer by LBSC recounting the process of modifying peoples appliances as they were joined on to the grid, much like the change to north sea gas which I remember at school resulting in new bunsen burners in the chemistry labs.

Just thought, I have a bunsen, now if I can find a mantle I can rig up a light and make toast at the same time.  {-)
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sweeper

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2009, 03:47:09 PM »

The strobe effect produced by tubes is caused by the voltage dropping at the end of each half cycle. It can be reduced in effect by the use of different powders in the tube - having a greater afterglow. It is normally only noticed in the presence of rotating machines (until these lousy lamps came into use!) and was traditionally cured by using a twin tube fitting with each tube being knocked out of syncronisation with the other electrically by using a lag - lead circuit arrangement. One manufacturer of fittings claimed that due to the vastly improved tubes they used, such fittings were not necessary. Strange that, in our machine shop, I would have sworn blind that we obtained a strong strobe effect on the lathe chucks - but maybe that was just my eyesight  %).
The function of the choke (the big laminated iron core) is twofold (a) to produce a high voltage at start to strike the tube (b) to limit the current during normal running. Without a means of limiting the current, the current would rise rapidly and strip the anode of the tube and possibly rupture the actual tube.

Re the power factor question raised by Stallspeed
Quote
Scottish Hydro are giving out complimentary Philips fluorescent bulbs so they can't have heard about power factor
.
If you consider supply networks, low(er) power factor is really only a problem on the lower voltage systems as (in extreme circumstances) it could involve having to upgrade supply cables and transformers to cope with the extra current demand. As the system voltages increase, i.e. as you go back through the system toward the generation point, the system has a larger capacitive component built into it by it's very design. Their worry is not low power factor but rather the opposite - a leading power factor. In the big picture, the percentage of the total system load due solely to domestic lighting is small.
The point I was making was not the power factor involved but rather the increase in the load on the system in terms of the Volt Amperes.
If this is old news to you - please ignore!


Quote
The common voltage  'grid' is fairly recent - some of you must remember the changeover.
The event you are refering to was agreed in the U.K. in the mid 1920's.
Because of the costs involved, some of the old systems still hang on. Quite often they are a hangover from the system used to supply electricity from the local tramways systems - so even in large cities, you can find oddities. How about cable systems formed by having a wood trough filled with bitumen with lightly insulated copper conductors laid inside the trough? Sorry, going off topic.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2009, 04:30:07 PM »

Quote
The event you are refering to was agreed in the U.K. in the mid 1920's.
I think it was more likely the early '60s event, when large areas of the country that were still on 210 volts AC at 50 Hz were converted to a nominal 240.  I am sure lots of people remember having their telly "done over" and having a cinemascope effect on the telly until the day dawned and full power came on.  Not long before that, there were houses in Fleetwood (according to my mate who was a growing lad there in the '50s) where the supply for lighting was DC but the rest of the house was fed separately with AC.   He got a lot of aggravation from a mate of his when he sold him a model train transformer that wouldn't work when fitted with a light bulb adaptor (!) instead of a plug.  DC supplies are not suited to transformers.

I would still contend that most of this is about forcing a wholesale changeover at the public's expense to the benefit of manufacturers and disposal companies to do a job that was unnecessary in the first place.
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barriew

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2009, 05:25:12 PM »

W have a recent loft conversion and changed the lights downstairs to match in, I have about 30 GU 10 type ceiling lights all at 50 watts o/p.  They are still a small saving over the incandescent bulbs.


Hate to disappoint you Roy, but according to my man in the trade - he designs lighting schemes - the light efficiency of a GU10 bulb is actually worse than a 'normal' bulb. A normal bulb produces 12 Lumens per watt, a GU10 produces only 11 Lumens per watt. The 12volt versions are better at 18 Lumens per watt. For the highest efficiency you need a metal halide of 35 watts, which gives 94 Lumens per watt. Comapct Fluorescents range from 57 - 69 Lumens per watt, the larger sizes being more efficient.

High Power LEDs, not the ones we use in models, have a range of 54 - 72 Lumens per foot.

Barrie
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stallspeed

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 06:05:54 PM »

The event to which Bee is referring was a decade ago give or take a few years.
At new year the mains supply went from 240 to 230.....third time lucky,Bee?

New LED GU10 lamps will work worldwide so that is progress,no?

This house now has DC lighting thanks to 70watt laptop adapters but it is a step in the right direction.I've been unlucky with power cuts but I've now got battery backup.

Sweeper,I had to doodle a power factor correction transformer design on a calculator as a CAD program didn't handle a delta zigzag .Electricity distribution transformers had a p.f. of 0.1 on short circuit test so they needed synchronous capacitors (power factor correction generator) to test them.
I had a brief flirtation with high power lamp ballast design too.
I still don't know why you raised the subject of p.f.  {-) {-) {-)
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Bee

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2009, 11:25:47 PM »

It was either the late thirties or 1948 with nationalisation. Most people had nothing more than a few lights and a radio. LBSC was unusual in having several motors for his lathes which had to be swapped or rewound.

 Reading a bit on the web electric domestic lighting was relatively uncommon in the UK before WW2. I dare say a significant number of forum members were born into gas or oil lit households.
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Seaspray

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 08:27:03 AM »

LBSC  'Curly'  has been mentioned a few times. For those who don't know who he was  (not many I hope) here is a small link of him.

http://www.slightlybetterbooks.com/lbsc.htm

Seaspray
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2009, 09:07:30 AM »

Just a quick point we had to drop our voltage to comply with europe, and we will be going down to 220 volts in the next 5 years, however, there was a nice little loophole, which meant we were allowed a 10% leeway,  so although we have dropped we are still at around 235v (depends where you are, some area's may only get 216-220)
Of course as your volts go down. your amps go up, and so will your electric bill.
On the light bulb front (for those that don't know, I work in the entertainment industry) in the past when I designed the lighting for shows (west end and other) power demand for the show would be about 450 amps per phase (lot of power) these days days with LED technology, and high wattage low current discharge lamps we only use about 250 amps per phase (still a lot). LED's have made a huge impact, and has been said you can dim them (we do all the time) but as yet it has not reached the domestic market, but it will not be long (according to the trade mags) By the time the poor old 100watt lamp disapears, LED and energy lamps would have improved many fold (again according to the trade mags) So no panic (but still worth stock pilling)     :-)
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Colin Bishop

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2009, 10:09:34 AM »

Quote
Of course as your volts go down. your amps go up, and so will your electric bill.

Is that right? I thought that your lamps just got dimmer and drew less power - or does that just apply to DC installations?

Colin
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roycv

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2009, 10:21:38 AM »

Hi BarrieW, thanks for the information on Halogen bulbs.  I was told that the GU 10 / halogen bulb was more efficient, Sainsburys currently sell one with a claimed 20 % power saving, so this does not apply across the board?
Mind you I now have a ceiling space that is fully illuminated!

Can anyone tell me why dimmer switches have to be uprated 100% to operate Halogen lights.  I do understand p.f. from my electronic days, if this is also a factor (no pun intended).

regards Roy

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sweeper

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2009, 11:36:48 AM »

There would appear to be some crossed lines in here.
Quote
The event to which Bee is referring was a decade ago give or take a few years.
The standardisation of voltages in the UK was put forward in 1925/6 by Merz (the "father" of the Grid system).
It was agreed that the arrangement would be a 4wire 3phase system operating at 415V/240v 50Hz(for networks supplying consumers).
A British standard spec was drawn up (modified post-war) of prefered and non-prefered voltages. The standard for public D.C. supplies was dropped. I believe the last public D.C. supply network was used in Middlesborough and closed around 1964/65. There is however a fair amount of the old DC networks still in use running at 480V/240V A.C. using 3 wires (two outers and a mid-wire) which gives, in effect, a single phase supply. That much of these systems is well over a hundred years of age is proof of the adage "if it ain't broke...".


Sweeper,I had to doodle a power factor correction transformer design on a calculator as a CAD program didn't handle a delta zigzag .Electricity distribution transformers had a p.f. of 0.1 on short circuit test so they needed synchronous capacitors (power factor correction generator) to test them.
I had a brief flirtation with high power lamp ballast design too.
I still don't know why you raised the subject of p.f.  {-) {-) {-)

(1) Sorry, the only methods of pf correction that I am aware of are by using static capacitors or syncronous machines. Neither of which are used by the supply companies. Power factor correction is a problem for the customer to sort out. If they don't do it, the authorities have a neat way of ensuring that they take it seriously - they get a stinging charge on their bills if their pf drops below a certain value (value varies around the country but is normally about 0.8 or 0.75) and that, on a large industrial site can amount to big bucks.
(2) The only times I have encountered Zig Zag transformers is in their use on EHV systems as a means of providing an earthing connection (an artificial star point).
(3) The reference to short circuit conditions is immaterial. Equipment required for testing is very different to that needed in operation.
(4) Finally, If you check the contents of this thread, I didn't raise the subect of power factor. I think you'll find that it was your good self
Quote
Quote
Scottish Hydro are giving out complimentary Philips fluorescent bulbs so they can't have heard about power factor

Regards etc.
 
 
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stallspeed

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2009, 11:44:57 AM »

The unseen effect, and one that everyone is keeping very quiet about, is that to achieve this performance the actual electrical load taken from the supply is higher in terms of V.A. In other words, the effect on the individual pocket is reduced but the cost to the generator is most certainly not.
I'll gladly admit you beat me to it :}
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barriew

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Re: 100w House Bulbs
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2009, 05:26:32 PM »

Hi BarrieW, thanks for the information on Halogen bulbs.  I was told that the GU 10 / halogen bulb was more efficient, Sainsburys currently sell one with a claimed 20 % power saving, so this does not apply across the board?

Sorry - don't know the answer to that - I know that you can get Low Energy ones, but the light output is not very good. I was quoting figures from a talk our Club Chairman gave last month (run out of Boaty topics temporarily) - he works for one of the lighting companies.

I just today  needed to buy a replacement candle bulb to fit into a picture light - small screw fitting and limited space, so no chance of using the low energy types, but was able to buy one claiming 30% reduction. As far as I can tell its a halogen bulb in a candle envelope. Light is comparable to the incandescent in the other half of the fitting.

Barrie
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