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Author Topic: Submarine RTA........  (Read 3591 times)

polaris

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Submarine RTA........
« on: February 16, 2009, 10:46:42 am »


Dear All,

I wonder how two modern submarines in the middle of the Atlantic manage to bump into each other... and seemingly claim that neither knew the other was there! :o %) %%

Who picks up the insurance tab on this one I wonder! {:-{ >:-o  Will be some interesting arguments over this one I should imagine! :} - but I doubt we the gnrl. pblc. will hear very much about it.........

Regards, Bernard
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DavieTait

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 10:55:41 am »

Very simple Bernard SSBN's creep around at 5-8 knots making no noise so as sound is the only way to find another submarine then something like this is always going to be possible , although it was a millions to 1 chance of it happening. SSBN's are by far the quietest classes of submarines with the Vanguard being the RN's quietest and the French Sub Le Triomphant would be their quietest then we could have been swimming within 100ft of either and probably not heard them.

Being a slow speed collision the damage is not as bad as it could have been but considering the V class is 16,000t and the Le Triomphant being 14,000t the shear momentum would cause a lot of damage
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polaris

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 11:13:44 am »


Dear Dave,

So they would be 'off-the-map' to everybody except themsleves??? Mind you, the two navies might have known they both had subs. in that area? Anyway, if they didn't they certainly do now! I suppose sonar would give the game away to ocean 'listening posts', but surely subs. these days must have some kind of magnetometry instrumentation to detect other subs. within a mile or so???

Regards, Bernard
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 11:51:39 am »

Very poor BBC report http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7892294.stm. Heavy seas!!!!  >>:-(

Found this report on the web which is a better description: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2240543.ece

Colin
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Turbulent

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 12:14:37 pm »

Very simple Bernard SSBN's creep around at 5-8 knots making no noise so as sound is the only way to find another submarine then something like this is always going to be possible , although it was a millions to 1 chance of it happening. SSBN's are by far the quietest classes of submarines with the Vanguard being the RN's quietest and the French Sub Le Triomphant would be their quietest then we could have been swimming within 100ft of either and probably not heard them.

Being a slow speed collision the damage is not as bad as it could have been but considering the V class is 16,000t and the Le Triomphant being 14,000t the shear momentum would cause a lot of damage

Seen the boat yesterday, no visible damage, she didn't even need to surface. - The French were lucky by all accounts to get to the surface.

Colin Bishop

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 02:08:06 pm »

Well, there's the French for you - they always did tend to aim at the rigging... ok2

Still, it does seem to be an incredible misfortune that in a place the size of the Atlantic and given some variation in operating depths two subs should be unlucky enough to collide like that.

Colin
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DavieTait

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 02:54:33 pm »

The problem is , at a guess , the fact that France is still not fully integrated into the NATO military command structure. I would guess that the USN and the RN would have discrete areas of the Atlantic that their subs would operate in ( although neither would ever reveal where and when a sub would be , far too big a security risk even amongst close allies ) so a collision should not be possible. If the French do not participate in a tri-partite split of the Atlantic Ocean then its possible this can happen , and already has !!!

SSN's ( Hunter Killers ) have planned transit zones where they are given an area , course , speed and depth to operate in which is run by the USN/RN/NATO planners to avoid any possibility of collision but that system cannot ever be implemented for the SSBN forces
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polaris

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 06:32:48 pm »


Dear Davie,

What you say further begs the question that if even we on Mayhem might roughly 'know' what goes on in the Atlantic the French should as well... and they should steer clear of it unless they have told someone they are undertaking exercises - which it is probably likely they were doing. A touch irresponsible if they do roughly know - as we might - that some areas are regularly patrolled (even their MI can't be that bad). It would help I suppose if they were fully integrated NATO, but this would mean their being part of something large on someone else's terms and 'weight' couldn't be thrown about! %) I hope the French Navy is fully Comp.!!! :} - tad expensive for them otherwise! %)

Regards, Bernard
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Dave Buckingham

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 06:36:49 pm »

Hi
What get me is the total lack of knowledge of the reports taking about that they should have herad one another on sonnar!!!!!

It does not take much brain which they seem to lack you do not make noise you only listen or other silent means

Dave
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Tug-Kenny RIP

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 07:16:28 pm »


Makes you wonder if there was an  "attraction"  at that particular destination.  Rather like a fisherman throwing a handful of bait to certain area.   %)



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polaris

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 07:25:05 pm »


LOL!  {-)  Must be something and chips, and snails in this instance! :-) So, you mariners out there, be careful what you throw overboard! :} - you never know what might come up! :embarrassed:
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das boot

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 09:23:13 pm »

Someone didn't tell somebody else something quite important, methinks...try explaining this away to the First Sea Lord!!

 "I didn't see the oncoming sub sir, honest I didn't...."  :embarrassed:

Rich
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tigertiger

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 04:00:14 am »

This reminds me of an investigation in to an accident on a British training area in Canada in 1984, During night exercises.

A squadron of RCT trucks was out on the prairie, and had settled down for the night. They had rested up in a ditch to reduce their profile and camouflaged up the vehicles. the drivers then went to one vehicle for some scoff. It was dark.

At the same time a group of Challenger tanks were running across the prairie at about 30mph (50kph), in battle formation so they were not driving in single file.

One of the tanks then hit one of the trucks and flattened the truck down to the level of the flatbed (flat area at the back of the truck). Because the truck was in a ditch, and the tank was travelling at speed, the chassis and everything below were virtually unharmed. Basically the the top of truck was sliced off. Luckilly the diver was away having scoff at that moment.


The Army being the Army, they wanted to apportion blame. A truck had been written off afterall.

At first they charged the tank driver for driving with undue care, because he did not see the truck.
His defense was: this was a night exercise. The truck driver had done his job properly in camouflaging the vehicle, so he should not have been able to see the vehicle in question.

Then they charged the truck driver for abandoning his post (the vehicle).
His defense: If he had stayed with the vehicle he would not have been able to guess that the tanks were going to hit his truck. He would not have been able to stop the tank. The only difference is that he would be dead.

Neither of the charges held up. %)
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Roger in France

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 07:31:28 am »

I go with Tug-Kenny.

It seems too much of a coincidence, same depth, same part of the ocean, same time. Maybe they were both having a look at something on the ocean bed around there. Or possibly they were both running in stealth mood, their systems detected something they could not recognise and so they went to tale a closer look, too close!

Roger in France
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Turbulent

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 10:40:39 am »

I go with Tug-Kenny.

It seems too much of a coincidence, same depth, same part of the ocean, same time. Maybe they were both having a look at something on the ocean bed around there. Or possibly they were both running in stealth mood, their systems detected something they could not recognise and so they went to tale a closer look, too close!

Roger in France

These are Bombers, not Fleet boats.

malcolmfrary

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2009, 11:57:39 am »

One of the better comments from the Sun site was "Did the French surrender immediately?"
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Jimmy James

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 02:46:19 pm »

Submarines often use thermal Cline's(layers) to hide under or to rest on, A boat can stay dead silent by laying on a thermal ( like a big sponge mattress) with all machinery shut down for hrs or some times days.  Bumps and close shaves between sub's happen more often than the public realise. because of this

There is an international agreement between NATO and most world navies  that covers bumps & bangs... Basically it says that the owners repair and pay for only their own ships repairs
Freebooter
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tigertiger

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 06:27:34 pm »

knock for knock then  :}
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tigertiger

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 01:22:57 am »

Culled from today's MSN
In laymens terms

Sub Standard
Why are submarines always bumping into things?
By Christopher Beam
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 17, 2009, at 6:01 PM ET

The British submarine HMS Vanguard Two nuclear submarines, one French and one British, collided somewhere in the Atlantic this month, according to the two countries' defense ministries. Both subs were damaged, but no one was harmed. In 2003, a British sub hit an Arctic iceberg during military exercises. In 2005, an American sailor was killed when a U.S. sub crashed into an "undersea mountain." Why are subs always running into things?

Because they're stealthy. So stealthy, in fact, that they don't use the equipment necessary to detect obstacles. Most subs have two types of sonar: active and passive. Active sonar sends out acoustic sounds, or "pings," which can reach thousands of yards. If the ping bounces back, that means it hit an object—like a whale, a ship, or another submarine. But stealth subs often avoid active sonar, since the ping could give away their location. Instead, they use passive sonar, which merely detects sounds. (Sophisticated passive sonar reaches dozens of miles and can even distinguish between different types of boat engines.) If two extremely quiet subs are using only passive sonar, there's a good chance they won't detect each other. That also explains why subs occasionally hit land masses and icebergs—those objects make no sound.
How do the subs get so stealthy? Ballistic-missile submarines are built to evade detection by making as little noise as possible. They move slowly—usually no more than 20 knots. They're coated in anechoic tile, a rubbery substance that absorbs sound and prevents sonar detection. And nearly every moving part is isolated so that it won't transmit sound. The deck where the engine runs, for example, is built on shock mounts, which absorb vibrations. Piping is suspended from rubber-lined isolation hangers, which keep the flow of water from making noise. When an engineer wants his sub to be really quiet, he can switch to heat convection instead of pumps to move water.

The biggest challenge for navy engineers is keeping the propeller quiet, since it can't be isolated. When the spinning blades reach a certain speed, they create bubbles, which make a lot of noise. One quieting technique is to use lots of blades—most sub props are seven- or eight-bladed. That way, each blade doesn't have to spin as fast to create the same propulsion. Engineers will also adjust the shape of the blades and the angle of the propeller to compensate for the flow of water around the hull.
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DavieTait

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 10:51:27 am »

Also both of these subs use Pump-Jets not standard propellors. In surface ships a shrouded prop is far far more efficient than an open prop ( the latest LIPS high efficiency props in a custom made HR high efficiency nozzle are up to 50% more efficient than an open propellor ) meaning you can reduce drastically the RPM  on the shaft for the same output power and speed.

Since noise is caused by the tips of the blades cavitating , making bubbles , the slower you move them the noise generated drops off at a very high rate. All pump jets ( all modern sub propellors as well ) have an odd number of blades. If you have an even number of blades there is an effect where the blades go straight into disturbed water causing cavitation at low RPM making a lot more noise. With an odd number of blades the blade goes into the pre swirl ( where there is a vortex off the tips of the blades ) war flow meaning a lot less noise.

Put a shroud around a propellor and you will cut the noise down even more as the only plac the sub could normally be heard would be from a cone of about 15' from right aft. A properly designed pump jet using 13-19 blades is almost silent up to 15 knots.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Submarine RTA........
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 11:50:48 am »

Just spotted this

Quote
AA WARNS MOTORISTS TO WATCH OUT FOR BADLY DRIVEN SUBMARINES
"What you're looking for is an enormous black metal tube, 150m long with French number plates," says spokesman
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