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Author Topic: What has Shakespear ever done for you?  (Read 9969 times)

nhp651

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What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« on: March 04, 2009, 01:44:53 pm »

A manchester Top of the education league school is dumping the British GCSE examinations for the harder IGCSE (international exam)
The british government has gone off on one because the school, which charges £9k a year for it's ed. will not be teaching Shakespear and other classics in the curicullum, and has said that the school will therefore come BOTTOM of the exam league tables in future years because the IGCSE's are not counted in the league tables.
a) when did you last use that knowledge of Shaky that you learned in school, and
b) is the government not throwing it's dummy out' the pram because it can't get it's own way in totally ******* up the education of people in this country.
They bang on about being an integral part of Europe and when a school gears it's kids up to learning more about european matters, ol' Gordon the moron and his headless crew bleet about it. <*< <*< <*<
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toesupwa

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 03:23:21 pm »


a) when did you last use that knowledge of Shaky that you learned in school, and
b) is the government not throwing it's dummy out' the pram because it can't get it's own way in totally ******* up the education of people in this country.


A/ Yesterday.. "Good morrow my lord" Richard III, Act 3, Scene 2
B/ Yes, but with good reason. British schools should teach British Language (English), British history (First).. and some European history (Second).. and some world history (Third).
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 04:47:10 pm »

Nah, Toesupwa,
I don't agree, (well I do in a way)
Yes, we should be proud of our history, ( as I am) and should learn about our history and geography.
BUT, and this is a BIG but................I don't find any use for such things as  Shakespeare ( we don't use that language any more), algebra,( I have never used that maths either before or since) or a multitude of parts of the curriculum that are totally useless.
I mean, when was the last time I used greek mythology or latin to further my aims in life.
Much more use to the kids of today would be those subjects which give them a good start in life in a cosmopolitan world in which we on this side of the pond live(no detriment intended, but at times I feel that the US and a large percentage of it's inhabitants generally have little in common with the europe that is developing today, with more and more eastern block countries joining the EU)
But that wasn't the point I was trying to make in my original post.
The point was that this useless government that we now are all enduring over here throws its rattle out the pram with threatening notions to a school which is trying to better the lott of it's kids rather than embracing what the school  feel is progress in a country that seams to be going down the pan, RAPIDLY!
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 05:11:19 pm »

Quote
BUT, and this is a BIG but................I don't find any use for such things as  Shakespeare ( we don't use that language any more), algebra,( I have never used that maths either before or since) or a multitude of parts of the curriculum that are totally useless.

That's a rather insular viewpoint Neil - just because you personally don't find it useful doesn't mean it is useless to somebody else. If you don't expose kids to some of these subjects when they are young you would be stunting an awful lot of potential careers. Can't say I much enjoyed my brief experience of Latin but it comes in handy in Europe when trying to decipher something as a lot of languages have their roots in it. Shakepeare is a lot more than just funny old language too, there are universal human themes running through his work which many people to respond to. It was only when I got involved in computer programming that I began to appreciate and use some of the maths that was drummed into me at school. My long standing interest in ancient history was sparked off in school, knowing what the origins of your civilisation are gives you a much deeper perspective in life such as learning that they had flushing toilets on Crete 3,500 years ago and you can still see them - clever lot they were in those days. Must have had better schools!

Too many people just live in the present and don't know what they are missing.

Colin
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 06:31:12 pm »

Didn't mean it to come out like that, Colin
what i was trying to point out is, that although the present government is totally pro EU,(which is another argument and minefield altogether) one would expect a school that makes it their point to give children the best start in life by gearing up their exam's to a european level, the education ministers have ( as usual) taken an insular viewpoint and stand and said that first and foremost the school should be teaching as a matter of course, the OLD CLASSICS and those subjects that so many modern kids are just NOT interested in.
I have never said that these subjects should be stopped but kids should be given that choice in their options from year 9 onwards should they wish to do so.
I maintain that some of the stuff that I was subjected to as a kid, and also what I subjected kids to in my 22 years of teaching, because of set government guidelines and exam board curriculum was neither use nor ornament, but sadly I had no option but to teach  it.
However I would like to hear whet some of our european members from germany, france norway and such think of the way in which we in Britain teach and still glorify our age of colonialism and our classics rather than teaching for the future.
Do they spend inordinate amounts of time teaching stuff, that even though widens the mind, does little for future job success through out the world.
Sorry, I might be very cynical, but I spent 22 years in the profession, and although teaching has come on tremendously in the years that I have been out of the frey, the sad fact is that the teachers are still to a certain extent still bogged down by the subject matter.
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OMK

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 06:58:36 pm »

...because of set government guidelines and exam board curriculum was neither use nor ornament, but sadly I had no option but to teach  it.

Good point. The only classes which the kids at my secondary school shown any interest in were metalwork, woodwork and sport. Subjects such as English, math and geography, etc, were already covered at the primary school. One teacher in particular was aware of this and, in his own inimitable style, had a knack of making topics such as algebra and Shakespeare quite interesting. He didn't conform to the usual curriculum, was very popular with the kids, loathed by the other teachers, and needless to say, suddenly disappeared from the teaching scene.

Is your surname McHugh, by any chance?
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 07:08:21 pm »

No but my subjects were woodwork, some metalwork and tech drawing, ans as you say, the kids enjoyed those subjects. %% %% :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 07:09:42 pm »

I think as PMK says, a good teacher can make almost any subject interesting, just as a good writer can make any book readable.

Colin
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Brian_C

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 07:11:11 pm »

dont knock shakespeare,,, i think he makes some great fishin gear  {-) {-) {-) {-) %)
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2009, 07:58:29 pm »

You've lost me there, Colin.
I'm not talking about the pro's and con's of good and bad teachers.
I'm talking about a top school in this country saying that the gcse subjects which this government wants them to teach, are worthless and too easy in today's modern schooling, and that they want to gear themselves up to teaching kids towards a modern european education.
That, I commend,
And I have said nothing about teachers making dreery subjects interesting.
It's horses for courses really, but I wish I had had the oportunity to study far more interesting work than Hamlet or how Agammemnon took Troy(did he, I forget).
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sheerline

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2009, 07:59:03 pm »

Bang on with that last remark Colin. Personal experience of struggling with and rejecting maths as a lost cause was my lot until a good teacher sparked me off and made me understand it a lot better. Once the ball was rolling I went with it and couldn't get enough. The trouble was, it only started rolling in the last three years of my schooling but, nonetheless, it helped me enormously in later life as the fear of it had been banished.
This probably applies across the board and as everyone has different talents, it is a good plan to expose them to as much as one can, find out where their talent lay and then expand them.
As someone once said to me "Even the apparently dumbest in the class is good at something, we just have to find out what that something is"!
I didn't get exposed to Shakespeare or Latin however and personally can't work up any interest to find out more about it either. My talents lay in more practical areas and personally I feel i would have wasted good school time had anyone forced me to do it. I loathed religious studies with a passion, I consider that more of a waste of time than anything else and strongly believe this area of education should slung out of the window . These beliefs are personal to the individual, are divisive and should be left at home, not brought into the school where they waste time for some and actually appear to create problems for others.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 08:58:52 pm »

Can't disagree with any of that Sheerline. Common sense.

Colin
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OMK

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2009, 09:33:23 pm »

Our school was predominantly C of E. Religious Education was a joke. Our R.E teacher was the most horrendous woman on the planet, and what really stank was the fact she was having an affair with the geography teacher. The Catholic kids were banished from morning assembly, ushered into a grotty room, treated like second-class citizens, while the rest of us had to endure thirty mins of total hypocrisy every morning. Sheerline is bang on the money when he says R.E is a total waste of time.
I'm voting that he and NHP should be put in charge of school education at the next election.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 09:44:24 pm »

During my time in Local Government I spent five years in an Area Education Office back in the late 70s, early 80;s. It was actually quite an efficient operation and one of my jobs was to act as Clerk to 25 or so School Governing Bodies. I remember having to explain quite emphatically to one of our Roman Catholic (Aided) Schools that, no, it was not acceptable to attempt to indoctrinate local non Catholic pupils into the Catholic faith. They were quite put out about this.

Colin
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 11:06:17 pm »

Quote
but I wish I had had the oportunity to study far more interesting work than Hamlet or how Agammemnon took Troy(did he, I forget).

You might find it more interesting if you have stood where Agamemnon once did in Mycenae and ventured into the underground passageway which led to the citadel's secret water supply - constructed over 3,000 years ago. Spooky just isn't the word.

Colin
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2009, 11:10:06 pm »

now THAT I would have enjoyed, colin. :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2009, 11:23:38 pm »

Well, here's a couple more pictures then:

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OMK

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 04:31:06 am »

You're right -- spooky just isn't the word. Try dead fascinating.
This is where I feel left out, education passed me by, because who was Agememnon? Where is Mycenae? I have heard of Troy/Trojan horse, but that's as far as my 'knowledge' goes.
You mention 3,000 years ago. And secret water supply. What was that all about? And why?
Who carved those lions in the rock?
Can you elaborate pse?

Who took those photographs?
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OMK

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 05:03:06 am »

Personal experience of struggling with and rejecting maths as a lost cause was my lot until a good teacher sparked me off and made me understand it a lot better. Once the ball was rolling I went with it and couldn't get enough.

Wish I had the sense to put it into words like that, because what you just described was exactly as it was for me and all. I used to be terrified of math. And that alone scared the hell out of me because even from infant days I had a hankering to get into wireless and electronics. I knew that some understanding of math was required but figgered I was waaaay above my station because the math problem would always be in the way.
Then one day, bunking off from school, I found myself in the library and came across a book which explained exactly what those formulas meant - written in a way that this bozo could actually understand. And that was it, I was hooked. It was very much like your fist girlfriend; once you had a taste of the goodies there was no going back.
My only regret is not remembering the name of the author of that book because I'd dearly love the shake the dude's hand.

I'm glad your posted your post. Most everything I have learnt has been through books - not via a proper education. I've always felt guilty about that, felt like I've cheated my way through life, learning little snippets from others - not having the sense to know what I should have knew anyway. Reading your post, and seeing that you too struggled with math, kinda makes me feel a tad less guilty.
I owe you a beer.
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 07:51:27 am »

PMK...Historical archiology has got to be one of the most fascinating studies next to forensic archiology that you could ever wish to study. :o :o
It's understandable and fathomable, and I only wish I had gone down one of those two roads after leaving college.
Real top notch stuff. O0 O0 O0
Thanks for posting the pics colin. :-)) :-))
neil.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 10:08:44 am »

Neil, I took the pictures myself. We've had a couple of package holidays in nearby Tolon which is a nice place to stay and a lot of the famous sites are within an hour's drive or less.

The underground passage was built to gain access to a subterranean spring which gave the citadel a secure source of water if it was beseiged. It goes down quite a way with a dogleg bend in the middle and is unlit.  If it were in the UK you'd never be allowed in!

There are some general views of Mycenae here: www.ontclassics.org/images/VIR_0004.PPT

If you want to learn a bit about the Trojan war without getting into archaeological technicalities this book by Barry Strauss is very readable and up to date. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trojan-War-Barry-S-Strauss/dp/0099474336


Colin
 
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sheerline

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 10:20:16 am »

Hi PMK, sounds like were all out of the same mould , formal schooling is ok for some but for others, at the very young age at which it is introduced, home life , emotional and class factors all come into play and can serve to restrict a youngsters ability to concentrate and absorb information. We all learn from others and snippets of this and that picked up from all over the place, it's normal and it's how we move through life so don't feel like you've faiiled or are some kind of cheat, you are just like the rest of us. Most of begin to 'take off educationally when we have actually left school... thats what happened with me. The inability to pass exams simply meant that a lot of opportunities for work were closed to us simply because we did not have the qualifications.
I have a friend who has a photographic memory, he astounds me with the immense level of knowledge he has retained on just about everything he has read, it's unbelievable. I can't even remember where i left my ruddy glasses 10 seconds ago!! There are also those out there who have an ability to pass exams, they just swat up, retain the info for long enough to answer all the questions and pass... don't you just hate them?
The ability to learn and retain info is a sign of intelligence but what you do with it is another thing. I have met a lot of people in this life who are well educated, well spoken and well heeled, but who are completely useless at just about everything. A lot of them have little common sense which is probably the best attribute one can have.
Contentment is the secret to a happy life, it doesn't matter how much money or possesion one holds just as long as you are content. As humans, we are all discontented to one degree or another but we do the best we can with what we've got and hopefully are not too discontented.
One day i'm gonna call you on that pint! :-))
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nhp651

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 10:37:59 am »

Thanks Colin.
It's the archiology that interests me. fascinating to be able to look and tough that which was made by other craftsmen/women hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, with basic rudimentary tools.
Just simply fascinating. :-))
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Bowwave

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2009, 10:59:28 am »

I think as PMK says, a good teacher can make almost any subject interesting, just as a good writer can make any book readable.

Colin
I'm not a particularly religious person but   the secondary school I attended in the 1950s had a brilliant RE and History faculty. Our history and RE was brought alive and as pupils we learned to appreciate what history can teach future generations.  The bible was seen not just as a religious text but as a historical document and we were taught to question and not just accept. Even today I have an interest  in post Roman Britain and how our islands developed in that turbulent period.  As for the works of Shakespeare I am a fan ,  as the appeal of his works has so much relevance to modern thought. Greed, treachery , war,  love and hate are all part of human existence and Shakespeare could encapsulate  these human experiences  not just to entertain but to make the audience ponder and question  the  same  conditions that are with us in abundance today.
Bowwave

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Peter Fitness

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Re: What has Shakespear ever done for you?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2009, 12:33:38 am »

Well said, Bowwave.

I enjoyed Shakespeare at school, the 2 plays we studied in depth were The Merchant of Venice and Macbeth, and to this day, over 50 years on, I still know some passages from both works. I also read a number of his other plays for my own enjoyment while still in my teens, but I have to confess I have not read any for many years now. I agree with your statement that Shakespeare still has relevance in the present day.

 I did Latin in my early years of schooling, and I believe it gave me a good grounding in the basics of the English language. I know it is a "dead" language, but its influence on English is quite strong. I also studied British and Ancient History as 2 separate subjects, and one of the great fascinations for me was visiting Britain, and seeing first hand many of the sites I learned about all those years ago.

Peter.
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