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Author Topic: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale  (Read 19714 times)

Bryan Young

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2009, 06:10:42 PM »

Although this is turning out to be a really good model I would never in my wildest dreams call the things "graceful". "Utilitarian", "Fit for Purpose", "Shape Follows Function" etc. etc. But "Graceful" she aint!. Just my opinion. BY.
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grandpal

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2009, 02:20:18 PM »

Have received my working plans (1/192 Scale). Nice job on the stern. Was wondering what size of ply you used for the frame work. Since my hull will be smaller than yours perhaps 3/16 ply would suffice.
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2009, 08:52:55 PM »

I used 1/4 inch standard lumberyard ply and it worked just fine, so i think 3/16 would be fine for your model.

Please post a build thread when you start, I for one would love to see your laker.
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2009, 06:11:13 AM »

Hi all,

Progress has been slowed down by the heat and bugs... gotta do all filling and sanding outdoors.  So far i have the hull almost as smooth as i want it, just a few small pocks and bubbles to fill and then it's ready for glassing. 



Speaking of glassing,  I must admit i have little idea how to do it properly, and so i have a number of questions:

- can you reduce the amount of hardener added to prolong working time?  Even with a helper i will need quite a bit of working time, considering the length of the model.
- can you use two sheets instead of one, overlapped slightly in the centre?  Can you apply one sheet, let it cure, then apply the second?
- what is the best way to apply fiberglass and resin?  Tin says to soak the cloth separately, then apply it to the surface and add excess resin.  Building demos here seem to involve laying the cloth on the hull and painting resin overtop.  Is there a right and wrong way?

Thanks for all the help so far, i hope i can do ballasting trials in a few weeks, if the heat hasn't boiled off every lake in the vicinity. 
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2009, 08:32:48 AM »

Hi all,

Progress has been slowed down by the heat and bugs... gotta do all filling and sanding outdoors.  So far i have the hull almost as smooth as i want it, just a few small pocks and bubbles to fill and then it's ready for glassing. 



Speaking of glassing,  I must admit i have little idea how to do it properly, and so i have a number of questions:

- can you reduce the amount of hardener added to prolong working time?  Even with a helper i will need quite a bit of working time, considering the length of the model.
- can you use two sheets instead of one, overlapped slightly in the centre?  Can you apply one sheet, let it cure, then apply the second?
- what is the best way to apply fiberglass and resin?  Tin says to soak the cloth separately, then apply it to the surface and add excess resin.  Building demos here seem to involve laying the cloth on the hull and painting resin overtop.  Is there a right and wrong way?

Thanks for all the help so far, i hope i can do ballasting trials in a few weeks, if the heat hasn't boiled off every lake in the vicinity. 

  The build is looking good
1) You are playing it doggey trying to alter the setting time with less hardner. It will work to an extent, however, you run the risk of it not setting at all. In your case, only mix up enough resin to do a third or a quarter of the hull. Start at one end and work to the other. Don't wait for one section to fully harden before going to the next. When you're done with one batch, mix the next and move along. You can over lap the resin as you go. It will be helpful to have someone else to assist you on this too.
2) Yes you can use multiple sheets of glass fibre. However, you could do it in one. Place the hull upside down, cut the glass cloth to the size to fit the hull. Place it over the hull, notching it at the bow and stern so you don't get any bunching. Place it over the hull in the correct position. Use cyano to hold it down at spots along the edges. Mix you resin and start at the keel and work downward to the edges of the hull.
3) Don't soak the cloth separately. You'll never get it on if you do and end up with a small mass of resin/cloth that you'll never do anything with. Go to Canadian Tire paint section and buy one (or more) of the cheap small foam rollers. The throw away kind. Mix your resin in a small container ( I find a small plastic Yogurt container works well) and pour a strip of resin along the keel, starting at the bow, for instance. Using the roller, starting at the keel, roll the resin into the cloth moving the roller from the keel down word. Don't apply a lot of pressure or you'll draw and drag the cloth and get your self into an awkward situation. Work from the keel down both sides more or less equally. The roller smooths out the resin requiring less sanding afterward and creates less drag on the cloth reducing the tendency for it to slide around. It also works better than a brush to remove air bubbles without disturbing the remainder of the cloth.
  Pay special attention to the air bubbles. Roll them down to the edge of the hull traveling in the same direction. Imagine trying to remove an air bubble when you're wall papering. Same thing.
  I use Canadian Tires fiberglass resin from the body shop section. Works great. The small tin will go along way.
  When the exterior is done, resin coat, only , the interior too. A cheap paint brush works well for this. Put a little extra in the bow when you're done "painting the interior of the hull, then stand the hull on end, bow down, and let the lot set. This will make the bow section much stronger and reduce the damaging effects if you run into something while running.

  If you have any more questions, send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. We can talk about it that way.
John

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dreadnought72

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2009, 08:50:47 AM »

I don't think John's said anything I wouldn't.

I would recommend, however - depending on your weather - doing the fibreglassing in the early morning or in the evening. Hot ambient temperature speeds up the setting time.

Do follow the mixing instructions - reducing the amount of hardener could definitely lead to non-setting of the resin. I have been there!  :embarrassed:

As a first-timer, while you could lay the cloth in one piece (especially with assistance) you will almost certainly find it easier to do it in segments, overlapped by an inch or so. A sanding later will remove any raised overlap.

I'm not sure I'd recommend yoghurt pots - I've melted a few in the past. But maybe your pots are different?

You might want to buy some disposable gloves. Resin and glass fibre is possibly the most horrible, sticky nastiness known to man (speaks Andy, having cleaned a kitten's litter tray this morning) don't feel you've messed up while working on your pristine wooden gorgeousness. It will come right in the end!

Speed, a positive attitude, and methodical approach is essential.  :}

Good luck!

Andy
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furball

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2009, 09:12:09 AM »

Quote
Resin and glass fibre is possibly the most horrible, sticky nastiness known to man

Never changed a newborn baby then? A mixture of toxic waste and velcro... {-)

Lance
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boatmadman

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2009, 09:31:11 AM »

I would add just one thing, its well worth having a practise run on some scrap wood just to get used to handling the stuff and the process you need to work it, and you will get a feel for the pot life, ie how long you have to work a batch before it starts to go off.

Ian
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dreadnought72

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #58 on: June 26, 2009, 10:04:30 AM »

Never changed a newborn baby then? A mixture of toxic waste and velcro... {-)

Hi Lance, I have, on many occasions. But at least, with nappies, you can hose yourself down afterwards.   {-)

Andy
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #59 on: June 26, 2009, 11:17:15 AM »

I don't think John's said anything I wouldn't.



I'm not sure I'd recommend yoghurt pots - I've melted a few in the past. But maybe your pots are different?

Speed, a positive attitude, and methodical approach is essential.  :}

Good luck!

Andy

  I agree with your comments Andy. Interesting about the yogurt pots, as an aside. I've got one I've used a number of times. It hasn't touched the plastic, in fact it I can remove the set resin from it easily, in one piece, before I prep the next batch. Would be interesting to hear from a plastics expert what the differences in the plastics are.

John
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2009, 10:57:14 PM »

Thanks for the fast advice!

The resin I'm using is 3M polyester that i got at a local Home Hardware.  I already used some to seal the outside and inside of each planks, and according to their mixing ratios, i found it becomes unworkable and gels after about four or five minutes.  That's at the recommended twelve drops per ounce.  I asked my dad (chemistry teacher) and he suggested reducing that to about 9 drops to extend the time.  However, if it's best not to alter that, I'll use the batch method (sounds easier anyways)

The reason i asked about using two pieces of glasscloth is that the local autobody store only seems to sell prepackaged pieces that are 3' by 44".  I'd need to cut them in half to get the right sizes. 

As for yogurt cups, got plenty of those and they seem to withstand all sorts of glues including epoxy.  I think they're made from butyrate, similar to Rubbermaid bins.
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2009, 01:51:08 AM »

Sounds like you're off an running. When you get the glass cloth, get the finest grade you can. It'll make a nicer job and mean less sanding in the end.

John
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grandpal

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2009, 12:13:34 PM »

Go to www.airfieldmodels.com then to section on How to - Finishing. Although it deals with aircraft I found it very helpful in dealing with the laying of fiberglass. Also check out your Hobby Shop for Glass cloth for aircraft as it is lighter than your car dealers supplies, and Finishing Resin as it is easier to work with.Great looking hull. %)
granpal
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #63 on: July 08, 2009, 06:04:57 AM »

Another small update - flotation trials today!

Well thankfully she isn't sitting on top of the water, but bearing down on her still felt like pushing against concrete.  Time to cut some ply and gussets for a free-flood chamber, and put lots of foam in it as Oldiron suggested to make sure she doesn't ride too low.  Always better to have reserve buoyancy.



In addition, a few more layers of epoxy and sanding to get her hull nice and level.

EDIT:  for the curious, the reason i'm not using standard removeable solid ballast is that i want the spar deck to have as few large holes as possible, and due to the design of the hatches on lake freighters, i'd have to make a removeable deck section.  The flood chamber will be slightly smaller than 5 3/8 by 22 by 4 inches, so 440 cubic inches of water, minus the foam and baffles.  And before i ever open it to the water, i'll fill it by hand and see if it makes the model float too low in the water. 
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derekwarner

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #64 on: July 08, 2009, 07:20:28 AM »

oldiron...the table below confirms a cubic inch of H2O is 0.0164 kg..so 440 = 7.26 kg only...is this in line with your design thoughts?.......Derek  :-X



Pounds  Grams  Kilograms 
Cubic cm.  0.002205  1  0.001 
Cubic inch  0.036127  16.387064  0.0163871 
Liter  2.204684  1000.028  1.000028 
Gallon  8.345404  3785.4118  3.7854118 
Cubic foot  62.42796  28316.847  28.316847 

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Derek Warner

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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #65 on: July 08, 2009, 09:38:40 AM »

Hmm, that's less than i thought.  Would actually be less than that, 220, as that's a full chamber and she would only settle down halfway.  If i increase it to 30 inches long, it goes up to 322 cubic inches and 11 pounds.

Thanks for that Derek, I'll have to figure out what combination of ballast and water i can use so that i get minimum 'handling weight'.  Bloody thing's already hard to get through doors.  Now i see why you guys all build short tugs!

Cheers
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #66 on: July 08, 2009, 01:06:42 PM »

  Your vessel is coming along nicely.
  As to the amount of foam to put into the hull. I think perhaps its being made more complicated than needs be. If you are to consider the hold portion of the hull that is to be flooded, it alone will float to a depth equal to an amount of water it displaces even when flooded. Being Styrofoam, even with a resin covering, its still going to float with its deck above water when water occupies the full hold area. What you are trying to maintain is your desired free board level on that section.
  The fore and aft sections will float high in the water as they do now, because you will have two  water tight compartments with , relatively little weight in them. As in any vessel, these will have to be weighted to bring them down to your desired level. Since the hold section is relatively speaking neutral in the water. Your vessel depth is determined by the amount of ballast placed in the fore and aft sections. The Styrofoam in the center section will ensure that the desired free board is maintained and provide some flotation support to the center section.
  The drawing below illustrates how I would handle the build in terms of water into the hold section of the hull. If built this way, simply weight the fore and aft sections to taste.

John
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derekwarner

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #67 on: July 08, 2009, 01:37:18 PM »

ZZ56....sorry for the mis-name. :embarrassed: ...it is also important to understand the positioning of the balllast....so .....tell the members .......Derek  O0
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Derek Warner

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boatmadman

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #68 on: July 08, 2009, 01:50:10 PM »

I would recommend putting the foam ballast alongside the sides of the boat (inside of course), this will give lateral stability.

At the moment you have for/aft stability produced by the buoyancy in the bows and stern, but very little side to side.

Ian



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dreadnought72

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #69 on: July 08, 2009, 02:03:55 PM »

Vertical baffles to reduce the slosh/free-surface effect in such a large tank would be a good idea, too.

Andy
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #70 on: July 08, 2009, 02:41:15 PM »

Vertical baffles to reduce the slosh/free-surface effect in such a large tank would be a good idea, too.

Andy

  If he puts the styrofoam at his desired free board level, he won't have an slosh effect as the hold will fill with water. Granted a small amount of air will be trapped in the top, but this can be eliminated through the use of scale vents.

John
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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2009, 02:44:52 PM »

I would recommend putting the foam ballast alongside the sides of the boat (inside of course), this will give lateral stability.

At the moment you have for/aft stability produced by the buoyancy in the bows and stern, but very little side to side.

Ian





  If the foam is placed along the sides, it will encourage the vessel to ride higher in the water. rather than increasing stability it will reduce it. Try placing a slab of foam vertically in the water and see what happens. It attempts to move to a more stable horizontal plane. It is this horizontal plane I've recommended for this vessel.
  If you look at the barge in the earlier part of this thread, it was done exactly this way and is very stable in the water and never goes lower than what you see in the picture.

John
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2009, 02:58:01 AM »

Hi, sorry for the lack of updates.  A lot of sanding leaves little progress to show. only two more bulwarks to fair in and a few more pinholes to fill!

Within a few days i should be ready for paint!  Ordered a 2.4gHz radio from overseas, rather than try to convert the radio my dad gave me to 75mHz.  Besides, it's a four channel unit, might as well save it for when i've got four channels worth of functions.


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oldiron

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2009, 03:15:07 AM »

Lookin good. have you decided on the name yet?

John
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ZZ56

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Re: G.J. Valiquette - Great Lakes bulker- 1/96 scale
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2009, 03:29:59 AM »

Nope.  I'm thinking either after a friend of the family (owner of a trucking firm) or 'Thunder Cape'

I put in the flood chamber just as you said and it works well, still a lot of buoyancy though.  I will probably make up some shot-filled ply boxes for ballast.  Can you buy shot without a firearms license here in Canada?
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