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[Malcolm Reade]

The problem is that the expenses claim system has apparently been used as an unofficial sweetener in addition to MP's salaries.  Nothing much has been said officially, but I imagine that pretty much anything could be claimed up to an annual limit (if indeed there was one)?

The two MP's who were caught, one resigned for 'double dipping' by both he and his wife, also an MP, claiming for the same second home simultaneously, and the other Member for Scunthorpe, suspended for claiming for a mortgage that he'd paid off a couple of years previously are both likely to have committed fraud, and should properly be taken before the courts.  If found guilty, they should be imprisoned.

(Can you actually be imprisoned for fraud in the UK these days)?

The two Peers in the upper house, found guilty of indicating that they were willing to take cash for affecting the outcome of legislation should be stripped of their Peerages and permanently expelled.

I believe that only swift, severe and comprehensive justice will do anything to restore our collective faith in Parliament.

Malc

[warspite]

then you have to remember, most of these people who, when caught, only have to do a public apology          and they just get off with the offence, no repremand etc, wheres the justice in that

[derekwarner]

Hi all....Australia  imported the Westminister system of Government from UK many  many years ago...so we have similar issues here with both Federal and State Governments

A few weeks ago in NSW we had one WOMBLE   Minister spend $250,000 AUD in a whirl wind tour of the world reportedly trying to secue world funds for the privatisation of the NSW electricity industry

Like who would commit funds when the Australian Federal Government is still discussing the CARBON tax assocaited with per tonne of CO2 emitted.........Derek

[boatmadman]

It was the MP's themselves who set up the expenses system, I understand it only developed over the last 10 to 15 years.

Another snippet I picked up is that all the time the MP's were making themselves look good by accepting lower than inflation payrises, they were in fact setting in place the system of expenses that allowed them to increase earnings massively.

Ian

[polaris]

Dear All,

There are too many hereditary MP's... viz., the ones whichever Party put in safe seats to ensure their continuance. Likewise, Ministers are always chosen from a chosen Party hierarchy lineup rather being chosen by the Rank & File MP's.

A totally independent Committee should now be set up, that should have the power to dismiss any MP who has taken or made excessive expenses claims. Unfortunately the only real course is for a vote of no confidence in the Govt. and a General Election should be called. It is now for the people to decide who stays and who goes.

As to what Political persuasion a County Council should be, I feel this system should be scrapped. Politics should have no bearing over what a County Council does or how it is formed... County councillors should only be chosen for what they can do, rather than which Party they support. As to how MP's are chosen, well, there lies a long debate. Personally I lean to the idea that National Party Politics should be scrapped, MP's would be far better chosen for what they can do and what they achieve - and should only be selected in the first place by judgement of what good public service they have done in the past - they must however have some sound professional background. There must be a PM obviously, and this should be done by a total vote of all MP's and not chosen (as it is), just by the Party in power - a PM should change annually, with whatever good policies continuing... these should be agreed by all MP's. A PM should have the right to change Policies, but only after agreement of all MP's.. An MP's salary should be a single rate, a Minister, slightly above (it is a privilege to be selected not a step up the salary level), and expenses should be set at a definite figure.

Clearly the system needs a good sweeping out. To be part of Govt. should be regarded as a privilege, however, if someone is selected as an MP, they cannot be expected to take a decrease in their normal income they would otherwise receive, so a happy medium would have to be found somehow.

All this is very simplistic and basic I know, and there is much more too it of course. However, I think many of us are getting sick and tired of Party Politic bickering and point scoring, their time would be better spent in running the Country than trying to get one over on 'the other side'.

Just my thoughts that's all.

Regards, Bernard

[Malcolm Reade]

Well made points Bernard.

To be honest, I could never understand the merits of a party political system of government?  It sets man against man, brother against brother.  I would much rather see a system where completely apolitical candidates were voted for solely on merit.

Politics would then be conducted on a concensus basis, probably with pragmatism and common sense prevailing.  (Or would that be too much to expect)?

You are absolutely correct when you say that a general election should be called.  The sooner the better as far as I am concerned.  I think that the European elections are going to see the rise of parties such as UKIP, (probably not such a bad thing), and worryingly, the BNP, mostly because voters are completely disillusioned with the main political parties.

It is most certainly time for change though.

Malc

[polaris]

Dear Malc,

I think there is certainly very good reason for a change now, but this time not just change for the sake of change.

In principal I agree with all your say. I think the only problem that could rear it's head now would be too many Parties leaving no particular Party in 'control'; getting close to Proportional Representation, and also the scenario of far to much time being wasted/spent with Parties negotiating between themselves for alliances to enable control to be achieved.

Whatever be the case, someone somewhere in Westminster is going to have to come up with a solution to all this mess - and fast. There is no doubt in everybody's minds I think that heads should roll over the more serious breaches in all this expenses fiasco - and there should be no delay.

Oh well, we can only wait to vote I suppose...

Regards, Bernard

[Bryan Young]

It's allright blaming the MP's for all this expences claims , but who decided that they could make the claims in the first place '
also the dept that deals with these claims do they just look at the figure and write a cheque out .
Come on nobody is that thick ,i mean if your in charge of expenses and some employee makes a claim for cutting grass or maitanance to a hellipad would you not ask questions, whoever set the system up should be questioned and also lets name the idiot's who hand out these payment's .
And as for the two silly beggers who tried to defraud the questions system they should lose their peerage.
daz

I presume you are talking about Mr.Walker (perhaps a "sir"....) and his boss a "Dr.Jack"? I don't know enough about Jack, but his unqualified deputy (Walker) was apparently told to wind his neck in by Gorbals Mick when he queried some of the claims. So instead of either "going public" or resigning on principle (Ha!...not a word one has heard recently) the neck was duly wound in and their sordid world just kept on turning.
When I was "working" (I did, now and again) all expenses were dealt with by a branch of the Civil Service, and woe betide you if one foot stepped out of line. Or didn't have a receipt to back a claim up. I would imagine that most commercial firms (possibly not the banks) have a similar system. So why not apply these strictures to MPs? Or is the civil service now so neutered that this would be a non-starter? BY.

[sheerline]

I am just sitting here waiting for old golden b--l--ks Mr Bliars file to be pulled. I wonder what he has got on his sheet?

Joking aside, the biggest dread most people seem to have is the rise of the far right, this lot have given them votes on a plate and played right into their hands. One hell of a lot of people are wringing their hands in anger to the extent they are prepared to vote for them, even though they were not inclined to do so before. Everyone is just fed up with being dictated to and being made to feel like second class citizens in favour of every man jack who happens to wander across the channel.
Whilst everyone is struggling to come to terms with mass uneployment and finding it difficult to make ends meet, plus losing their homes, they then discover the very people who tell them to tighten their belts are actually slackening theirs and it's just too much to bear.
'Inept' is the least offensive word i can use to describe the parasites who have brought shame on this country
I still have my rope and it's looking for a good use!

[polaris]

Dear All,

I think one of the other significant points in all this, is what idiot set up the expenses system as is in such a way as it could be misused, and what idiots controlled it while it was running!!! As to those overseeing it... well... they should get the chop just as much as all those who grossly misused it... if someone try's to tell me the overseers couldn't see what was happening I would say horse-feathers!

As Cromwell did, I would like to see the Army go in and clear Westminster of all MP's (but maybe keep those who are good - and there are quite a few), place good sound business leaders in charge for twelve months to keep the country running, and see a completely new Governmental system installed and start again - without Party politics... this an outdated monolithic dinosaur now. We just want Govt. to be Govt... no distractions, no nonsense, no time wasting useless Party bickering, just proper straight forward Govt..

Maybe too much to wish for I suppose... but one can hope of course!

Regards, Bernard

[Roger in France]

Yep, "good business practises" as applied by a few Directors of Banks and Building Societies, I suppose.

Oh by the way, if you want no political parties I presume you want 600+ independents each going their own way?

Roger in France

[polaris]

Roger,

In order...

1). I said "good sound business leaders"

2). No. Just taking notice of what the electorate want and expect of them. If in doubt of something, they ask the people. 'That' is called democracy!

Quite straight forward really.

Regards, Bernard

[wbeedie]

Or why not do what the government does with the building trade give £21 tax free to each MP for every night they are away from home to help with their meagre wages ,or set them into old barrack blocks with cooks and charge them the priviledge to do this like they do our armed forces a much fairer system and less likely to be robbed

[polaris]

Dear Wbeedie,

True. What MP's seem to have lost touch with is that they are just Civil Servants... just slightly further up the pecking order ladder that's all.

Regards, Bernard

[Bryan Young]

Some interesting comments so far. But I'm afraid that human nature, being what it is, will always drag people of a similar mind-set towards each other..and when they coalesce a "Party" will be formed. Just because a  good proposal has been put forward by a "party" that isn't yours shouldn't mean you have to rubbish it. One "member" really stands out here, although a Labour MP, Mr.Frank Field always seems to shine out as a beacon of what an MP should be. He always seems to have his constituents at heart and liases with the "opposition", whilst remaining staunchly "Labour". I salute that man.
As for the idea that sitting MPs should select future MPs, then the flaw in that argument is obvious. Who selects the first one?
Personally I think that the rot set in when the late and not lamented Ted Heath destroyed real local government (called Local Councils back in 1974) and invented the mega quasi "Metro Councils" that  we have today....a rich breeding ground for brain dead aspirants to higher things even though not many brain cells are apparent, and they "succeed". What a shambles. I'm almost tempted to advocate a Military Junta! BY.

[Bryan Young]

Dear Wbeedie,

True. What MP's seem to have lost touch with is that they are just Civil Servants... just slightly further up the pecking order ladder that's all.

Regards, Bernard

No they're not. If they were civil servants they would be subject to an entirely different set of rules.

[Colin Bishop]

Civil Servants are "Servants", Parliament in the form of  the Government and MPs are the bosses. Just as in Local Government the "Officers" are employees and the Councillors the bosses.

Colin

[Bartapuss]

What about those ad's on tv the governments been running about unlawfully claiming benefits, you know the one, chavvy mum with her live in boyfriend grassed up by next door neighbour, the message being "ignorance is not a defence", well talk about the pot and the kettle!!!!!

[keef666]

So now the M.P.'s have been found out, does that mean from now on, they will drop the Right Honourable title,
 as this all goes to prove their not

[malcolmfrary]

marginally "legal" according to the "Rules" that they themselves drew up, they are now also guilty of immorality

There is a difference between "legal" and "legitimate".  Sadly, immorality is not a crime.

what idiot set up the expenses system as is in such a way as it could be misused

Not an idiot.  An extremely cunning bunch of self serving privilege seekers and general purpose fraudsters.  It also takes huge arrogance to think that having set up a system to legalise theft, nobody will either notice or object.

[FullLeatherJacket]

When I was "working" (I did, now and again) all expenses were dealt with by a branch of the Civil Service, and woe betide you if one foot stepped out of line. Or didn't have a receipt to back a claim up. I would imagine that most commercial firms (possibly not the banks) have a similar system. So why not apply these strictures to MPs? Or is the civil service now so neutered that this would be a non-starter? BY.

The difference is that you weren't an Honourable Member, old thing. I recall that everything in our little world came to a sudden stop if an MP's Letter arrived. These people were treated like deities, irrespective of what we really thought about them or their (usually) lying, thieving constituents.

I imagine that the Commons Fees Office is run by some kindly old EO (probably a Home Counties lady) whose brief is simply to match any old receipt to a claim and to make sure the cheque matches the total of the claim. She probably gives the b******s biscuits with their tea while she stamps their claim forms. "Overseer" - a term used by another correspondent somewhere on this subject - is a bit strong, given the Fees Office staff would see themselves as being employed by the very people whose claims they process. Neutered? You bet!

As to the excuse "it was just a terrible mistake", I've heard that said more times by tax fraudsters just cornered than I could count. We didn't allow them  just to pay back the dosh and say sorry...............

FLJ

[Colin Bishop]

I think the "terrible mistake" bit simply means "I thought I could get away with this..."

Colin

[Circlip]

Hmm, lots of rending of teeth and gnashing of hair, depends on which side of the fence you are. Lots of people  subject to "Expences" usually try to buck the system in some way or another. As an "Outsider" doing a delivery job for SWMBO's employer a while ago, the accounts department were stunned how little fuel was used in the company Transit when I drove it. Got lots of black looks from "The Lads" including the foreman.

   Talk about selective editing, when questioned about the conduct of the Justice Minister in his home town, one faction were rather annoyed, another though it OK

   Regards   Ian.

[sheerline]

Here we go.... I am now given to understand that  golden balls Tony Bliar has had his expenses list shredded (allegedly)!!!!!!! 
I just bought some extra rope!!

[polaris]

Dear All,

"Civil Servants are "Servants", Parliament in the form of  the Government and MPs are the bosses. Just as in Local Government the "Officers" are employees and the Councillors the bosses.".

Not quite... Ministers are the bosses and head all Depts., MP's are there to vote as they are told by their Party whips and too keep the face of democracy! - or sometimes some do actually vote for their own beliefs... if they are brave enough! Ok, there is the occasional Committee to participate in/on, and maybe a pet subject they have which might take a few years to get into the House for a yes/no. Apx. 55% of a basic MP's time is taken up with Constituency issues (& making as sure as possible they are voted in next time), 35% in the House voting as they are directed/expected to, and 10% on endeavouring to do anything necessary to get themselves noticed by their Party hierarchy.

As far as I'm concerned, any person working in Local or Central Govt. receiving a full time salary or wage from the Public Purse is a Civil Servant. Ministers and above are slightly different (Cabinet)... all below must jump to their orders. The Public put them there, but sometimes they seem to forget this little point!

I was talking to a solicitor yesterday, and we spoke about these cases of expense misuse. He briefly outlined a recent case of 'slight fraud' on similar lines that he had defended: the offender received twelve months suspended, quite a bit of Community Service, and a fine. If there hadn't been mitigating circs., the person would probably have been sent down for three or four months. The solicitor considered that the extent and manner of some of these expenses claimed by some MP's came firmly within the description of fraud - & since Public money is involved the matter is that much worse. So, we will have to see if these MP's receive the same sort of normal justice that is given to everybody else who oversteps the mark! I gather that the Mail has said that if no-one else takes any action against some of these MP's they will... that will be fun if it happens! Might be a good time to start thinking about opening a business making guillotines!!! - anybody have any blueprints!

Regards, Bernard