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Author Topic: Installing lighting  (Read 9801 times)

BlueWotsit

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Installing lighting
« on: October 12, 2006, 01:57:46 pm »

Never see questions on installing lighting - surely Im not the only person in the dark on this    ;D

A tugboat Im upgrading at the moment has a single light at the top of the mast. Running down from it and through the deck are two wires.

What I would like to do, is infact have more lights coming off the mast sides.

Whats the best way of going about this, as the existing wires seem to be threaded through several sealed areas within the superstructure.

I dont obviously want to be adding more wires up the mast unless absolutely necessary.

Any tips on installing wiring generally would also be useful with the dark nights looming

thanks
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2006, 02:05:40 pm »

Provided you want all the lights on the mast to work at the same time, and the wire feeding the existing lamp is adequate for the extra current, there is no reason why the extra lams should not be fed using the existing wiring.  Just run extra wires back dow the mast to the new lights and wire in parallel.  To avoid big thick wires all over the place, Verowire is good stuff.  It will handle 100mA, the enamel insulation is good for over 50 volts, and you dont have to clean it off as it acts as a flux for soldering.  When its nicely in place, it can be painted over and will look like wiring on a real boat that has been painted over.
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cbr900

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2006, 03:19:47 pm »

If using leds be careful that you use the correct voltage, they are a devil to replace once installed, or add a resistor to the positive side of the led and you can then up the voltage with no problems...



Roy
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Malc Reade

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2006, 06:33:52 am »


You should never connect an LED without a resistor in circuit - the value of the resistor needed varies with the performance characteristics of the LED used.  The old basic coloured types (not high performance) are mostly OK on 100 Ohm resistors, but the newer high output types can require resistors up to 470 Ohms or more! 1/4 Watt resistors are generally fine.  The high output clear (white) LED's that we use in all our search lights all use 315 Ohm 1/4 Watt resistors which work well on anything from 3 Volts up to 18 Volts.  Brightness increases slightly with increased voltage.

If you Google "LED resistor" you get loads of on-line automated resistor calculators - some for individual LED's, others for series and parallel connected configurations, but you do need to know the performance data for your LED.

We manufacture working (LED) versions of all the lights in our range of fittings.

Malcolm Reade





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RantandRave

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2006, 07:15:16 am »

On the maplin site there are many LEDs that already voltage regulated i.e. 6v 12v 4-30 volt!
Go to http://www.maplin.co.uk and do a search for - LED 400 items listed  :o :o
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cbr900

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2006, 07:53:25 am »

Malc,

Most leds run quite happily on 3 volts with or without a resistor, but if using any more power yes a resistor is necessary.....



Roy
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BlueWotsit

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2006, 09:44:23 am »

thanks for the useful info guys - where could I buy that wire that was recommended ?

cheers
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2006, 12:03:54 pm »

I had a look on Vero's site, and got a list of distributors.  I got mine from Maplin some time ago, but, with their usual genius for commecial acumen, they have either stopped selling the stuff, or have hidden it where it cannot be found on their website, so that they can stop stocking it as "sales of this product are low".  If you have a look in a branch, look in one of the captive catalogues under "PCB materials" - try to avoid talking to the assistants as most are McDonalds rejects.  An alternative is the enamelled copper wire, but you have to clean the bits that need soldering.


 Country   Name                                  Tel No.            Web site
  UK         Combined Precision Products   08701-205230  www.cpc.co.uk
               Farnell                                 08701-200200   www.farnellinone.com
               Maplin                                 0870-429-6000   www.maplin.co.uk
               RS Components Ltd.             01536-201201   www.rswww.com
               Surtech Distribution Ltd.        01264-369991   www.surtechdist.co.uk
   
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DickyD

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2006, 12:30:03 pm »



Copied off Maplin Website

Typed in Verowire in search box.

Is this the stuff? :) :)



 Enamelled Copper Wire

 
tested to iec 851/5/4, breakdown 7kva. grade 1 enamelled copper wire in rolls of 250g, suitable for coil forming, etc....
 
YN79L  250 ECW 2.0mm 14swg ~1 days  £4.79   
YN80B  250 ECW 1.6mm 16swg 100 in Stock  £4.79   
YN81C  250 ECW 1.25mm 18swg 38 in Stock  £4.79   
YN82D  250 ECW 0.9mm 20swg 68 in Stock  £4.79   
YN83E  250 ECW 0.71mm 22swg 10 in Stock  £5.22   
YN84F  250 ECW 0.56mm 24swg 36 in Stock  £5.22   
   
     
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Doc

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2006, 02:57:58 pm »

BlueWotsit,
Another alternative (maybe not for the mast, but for other areas) is to use multiconductor ribbon cables such as found in computers.  That allows several individual circuits/lights to be 'strung' in various places and won't be a great bundle of wires running through the boat.  Might even leave it exposed and call it conduit.
Something else to think about if you decide to use LEDs is to provide a voltage regulator/limiter at the power source (battery) of about 3 volts.  That would take the place of individual resistors for each LED, and tends to keep things simple.  Just add another LED when/where you want.  It really isn't any 'better' than the resistor method, but does make it a bit simpler for later 'add-ons' (or if you have 4 or 5 jillion LEDs).
 - 'Doc

Good idea, isn't it?  Glad I stole it!
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tigertiger

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2006, 03:45:44 pm »



Something else to think about if you decide to use LEDs is to provide a voltage regulator/limiter at the power source (battery) of about 3 volts.  That would take the place of individual resistors for each LED, and tends to keep things simple.  Just add another LED when/where you want.  It really isn't any 'better' than the resistor method, but does make it a bit simpler for later 'add-ons' (or if you have 4 or 5 jillion LEDs).


Please tell us more.
I thought you needed enough volts to match at least the number of volts of lighting you had in series (i.e. 3v led + 3v led + 3 volt led, requires minimum of 9v). Or d you need to wire all leds in parrallel?

I am about to do my first lighting system and need all the advice I can get.

I have looked at the eletric/electronic threads here already , and this I think is first mention of the above method.
So I is interested.
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Subculture

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2006, 04:04:59 pm »

You can wire LED's in series or parallel, it depends on your application. Look here for a tutorial-

http://www.lsdiodes.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page_4&zenid=be909dc1cf8bb7c3418a9f6b6b30226c

One important thing to remember, is that LED's do not like to be overdriven. A 12 volt battery is capable of giving 14 volts or more when freshly charged, this can easily result in the early demise of your LED's, so the right thing to do is to place a voltage regulator in line with the feed to the LED's.

Andy
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cbr900

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2006, 04:07:53 pm »

I don't know what anybody else does but if using more than 3.6 volts, use a resistor and run your wires down to a point where all can be joined into the two wires for connection to positive and negative, but the resistors need to be capable of reducing the voltage from 6v/12/18/24/ down to three volts, I usually ask the electronics guru in the local electrics shop and he supplies what ever resistor is required...


Roy
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Subculture

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2006, 04:13:48 pm »

Resistors aren't necessary unless you are using a high voltage and running the LED's in parallel.

You still need to think about voltage regulation to prevent too much current being pushed through the LED's when the battery is freshly charged.

A friend with a Disney Nautilus found this out the hard way.

There are a lot of nice little LED control chips out there now (and they're not expensive). These generally allow voltage regulation and PWM dimming.

Andy
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barriew

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2006, 07:30:45 pm »

For a Voltage Regulator Circuit see the following site and Click on Electronics

http://www.modelfireboats.co.nr/index.html

Barrie
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Malc Reade

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2006, 07:31:50 pm »

Roy

Quote
Malc,

Most leds run quite happily on 3 volts with or without a resistor, but if using any more power yes a resistor is necessary.....

You are perfectly correct in this statement, except that 'power' relates to Wattage (Amps x Volts) not Voltage alone, but as others have intimated, how many models actually use 3 Volts?  We manufacture a range of working lights for model boats, and sell all of them complete with matching resistors to ensure the compatibility of our lights with a range of voltages from (in extremis) 3 Volts up to 20 volts.  We state 6 Volts to 12 Volts on the packaging.

The searchlights have the resistors built into them.  Other lights are supplied with loose resistors, (for installation purposes), and we supply a connection diagram with each pack which includes a warning NOT to connect a supply across the LED's without the resistor in circuit.

We sometimes get modellers on the phone telling us that our LED's don't work. This is strange as we test each one before they're packed (only had one faulty one in the past two years).  The reason that the LED's don't work is because the modeller hasn't read the instructions and connected them across Heaven only knows what voltage without a resistor in circuit?  Sometimes I even suspect that they've had them across mains power supplies - these guys are really out there and are dangerous.

I've tried to replicate the sort of damage that modellers do, and with a calibrated, stabilised digital DC power supply, can often get an LED to work up to 18 volts without a resistor in circuit before it blows.  Try it yourself.

As far as I am concerned, and knowing from bitter experience how little modellers understand electronics, I have always previously, and will continue to tell them ad nauseum, That they should NOT connect an LED across a power supply without the supplied resistor in circuit.  It saves us a fortune in returns!

I hope this offers some background to my previous statement?

Regards, Malc

http://www.readebusiness.com





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wombat

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2006, 09:54:15 pm »

Typical maximum current for an LED is 30mA or so, most of the data-sheets characterise them at 10mA or 20mA. If you are running them from any sort of supply with a high current capacity (for example a battery) do not even contemplate running them without a resistor. I tend to specify 100R limiting resistors for green and 220R for red LEDs off a 5V supply (should be OK for 6V) - this give a roughly equal light intensity so they look matched.

Don't connect LEDs in parallel, especially if they are going to be in close proximity - unless the LEDs are specially matched you will not get equal light intensities. Better to use a single resistor for each one.

The other thing to remember with LEDs is not to connect them in reverse, especially if you are running above 6V - they can normally only cope with about 5V reverse voltage and under reverse conditions, the dropping resistance isn't going to help until it is too late.

Tim the Wombat
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2006, 11:49:02 pm »

I think I'm learning quite a bit from this!
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Malc Reade

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2006, 12:11:05 am »

Tim

If you look back to my original post on this thread, I did say that the old basic coloured types of LED require lower value resistors than the newer high intensity varieties.  Your 100R is bang-on the button (depending on the stated forward voltage of the diode) for that type of LED.  The new high intensity varieties which often come in water-clear packages (regardless of output colour) often require much higher value resistors.

In our case, the optimal resistor value for 12 Volt operation (from memory) was around 400R but to establish a standard value that would provide a useful output across a range of voltages, we opted for 315R - thus at 6 Volt, the LED is somewhat under powered, and at 12 Volt it is slightly over powered - but no so much that it would affect longevity noticeably.  Modern LED's will outlast the modeller.  In practice there is little noticable difference in intensity level across the range of voltages (6V - 12V)

(for the uninitiated, 'R' stands for Resistance - in Ohms).

Regards, Malc


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Dave Leishman

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2006, 12:36:31 am »

Just for info, there's a previous post on LED's in the Electrics forum on this site here  :)
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Roger in France

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2006, 07:01:16 am »

Yes, I am learning a great deal here as well. I have read previous discussions/advice on the Forum about LED's but found it a little confusing. This Thread has helped.

I am afraid I am a modeller who finds electronics a bit of a "black art" !

For those interested in such things, there is an article on building a simple, adjustable voltage regulator in the new American magazine "Scale and RC Boat". They are also offering (at a price in $) all the components to make up the regulator. They will post internationally and you can order on the Internet www.srcbm.com . Total price including international airmail postage $8.95.

Roger in France.
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cbr900

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2006, 08:01:17 am »

Malc,

The point I was making was for the circumstance, where you don't want he superstructure wired to the hull section, I usually make a pack of three batteries 3.6 volts and attach to the underside of the superstructure so that it can be lifted off with out disconnecting wiring, I was not trying to say that you were wrong in any way, as some of my boats do have the leds wired into the main motors and all have a suitable resistor, no offence meant mate, just offering another idea....



Roy
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Malc Reade

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2006, 08:02:37 am »



To respond to BlueWotsit's original initial post, might I suggest that he looks into the possibility of arranging his mast light wiring on separate circuits using the wire identified later in the thread by malcolmfrary?

As I understand it, although I'm not familiar with the details, there is an internationally recognised code of display of mast lights on tug boats which directly relates to the length of the tow in operation at that time?  Something like one lower light for 100Metres, two lights for 200Metres etc. I'm sure some of the tug aficionados on the Forum can clarify this for us?

Regards, Malc





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Malc Reade

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2006, 08:16:18 am »

Hi Roy

No offence taken, and in the setup you describe, a separate 3.6Volt battery pack mounted under the superstructure to make the whole thing more easily removed is ideal.  This provided that you, (as you do), know what you are doing.

My real concern was that if the idea that LED's can be run without resistors in circuit is put forward to the (and here I intend no offence to anybody) electronically uneducated, a lot of modellers are going to find themselves with a lot of LED's to replace...

Most modellers are pragmatic individuals, and eager to learn.  There are however a minority out there who are a menace to themselves and others, and as a responsible manufacturer, we have to consider the lunatic element as being worst case when designing our products and offering them for sale.

I could relate tales of what some guys regularly do to their models that would have tears of laughter rolling down your face.  But then, these folks are customers and their privacy must be respected.

My best regards, Malcolm

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tigertiger

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Re: Installing lighting
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2006, 01:16:51 pm »

Malcolm
Anybody

Before commit myself to a pile of smoke ::),
Could someone check my circuit for me (see below), as I don't know what I am doing.

I want to try and do things with circuits in series as it simplifies the wiring and would make it neater as I will have wiring going up one mast, along the triasic stay and down the other mast. It will also allow me to hide a single strand of wire below the rail.

I have used the calculator given in a previous link to work out the resistance needed, but I am worried that the currents may be too low.
Would I be better of with a small variable resistor, if such a beast exists ???

I will also post on electronics forum, but seeing as post is going on this thread I will pop it in here.
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