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Author Topic: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer  (Read 59404 times)

tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2009, 09:00:48 PM »

Hi,

1. Xtian - I've sent to a copy of the rigging drawing for the ship.
2. David - I'll send you a PM tomorrow.

A couple of other things I've noticed today. Firstly the first true torpedo boat (TB1 Lightning) had her rudder in front of the prop so it wasn't just the French who thought of it.

Secondly, mention was made by several vavies of Spar Rams being fitted and then the spar torpedos being an extension of those. (30ft or so). Could the 'pointy things' be the vestigual rams, still in place, after the torpedo bit was discounted.

Tony
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Xtian29

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #126 on: August 28, 2009, 07:43:05 AM »

Hello

Thank you Tony for the rigging drawing, all indication written on it are for exemple "vergue de signaux" (that means spar for flag); this mast rigging is very "fragile " for sailing and at least there is no connection with the bowsprit.

The question and discussion still open  :}

A+ Xtian   
     
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #127 on: August 28, 2009, 10:22:39 AM »

I think that there is a strong possibility that this spar may in fact be a jackstaff. In earlier sailing days the jack was flown from a small mast fitted vertically on the bowsprit while the ship was at anchor. At the "bowsprit ends" is what was specified. This was stowed away when the vessel put to sea. It is therefore possible that the spar on the bow of the Arquebuse and similar destroyers was used in some way for this purpose, either by mounting a light vertical pole at the end of the sprit - is that what the concealed fitting under the "boxing glove" is for I wonder? - or perhaps by raising the sprit itself to the vertical position. When you look at the pictures of these early destroyers and torpedo boats in Janes etc. there do appear to be two types of spar, a lighter one and the heavier one as carried by Arquebuse. There is some support for this on the site below from which I have taken an extract.

Colin

http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-nav.html

I don't think that, in general, it ever has been officially changed. Photographs show that RN ships normally leave the ensign on its staff at the stern, and only occasionally fly it from the mast of a ship with only one mast. Ships with two masts hoisted the ensign on a gaff at the after mast. Some ships, destroyers/frigates/ corvettes in WW2, and current mine counter-measure ships had/have a stub mast on the superstructure between the funnel and the stern on which the ensign is hoisted, sometimes on a gaff. Hoisting the jack in harbour was not made an official requirement until 1920, and before that, in some places and circumstances, was prohibited.1844 Queen's Regulations; "... and with Union Jacks at bowsprit ends when it shall be thought proper to display them". It was not until 1913 that "jack staff" replaced "bowsprit-ends".

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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #128 on: August 31, 2009, 09:51:06 PM »

In the early part of this thread I posted an answer from the British Maritime Museum stating that the some early British ones set a stay sail on the bowsprit when on long passages
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tobyker

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #129 on: September 10, 2009, 04:46:00 PM »

I still think its the socket for the torpedo spar.
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #130 on: September 10, 2009, 07:53:38 PM »

Just to advise that I'm due to receive some more plans and photos from France, including pics of the model in the Paris museum. As soon as I've got them I'll post anything interesting. As far as rigging is concerned, there is no indication of any lines to the end of the spar.

Tony
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #131 on: September 11, 2009, 04:01:05 PM »

Received today a CD with 49 drawings and detail photos from La France. Unfortunately, they're all mega size .tif files and I can't seem to drop them down far enough in size to post. Perhaps someone knowledgeable can advise.

Tony
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #132 on: September 11, 2009, 05:18:53 PM »

Tony,

I've managed to convert the three you sent me from TIFF to JPEG format:-

Colin

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #133 on: September 11, 2009, 05:19:15 PM »

PM sent....
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #134 on: September 11, 2009, 08:59:10 PM »

Many thanks to both Colin and Martin.

Tony.
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #135 on: October 10, 2009, 03:19:40 PM »

Tony
Any news yet on what that spar was used for?
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #136 on: October 10, 2009, 04:31:16 PM »

Nope, no news as yet.

I'm still on the build of the 1:36 version for Mayhem 2010 so, hopefully, inspiration will follow on!

Tony
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #137 on: October 12, 2009, 09:11:57 PM »

I wait with baited breath for your words of wisdom ;) ;) :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #138 on: October 12, 2009, 09:28:10 PM »

Fron the hints I have read in various publications it's still quite likely that the spar was jsut an ornament!

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #139 on: October 12, 2009, 11:17:21 PM »

Sorry JJ, but I think you overrate my Solomonic (if there is such a word) powers!

You're probably right Colin and it's probably one of those topics where 'bark' and'gumtree' co-incide but (a) why so heavy and (b) why put the 'boxing glove' on the end?

The French navy of the period normally showed more flair wot with too many funnels, mega-tumblehome and proper ram bows on their ships.

Also, there were several designers involved since all the classes of destroyers showed the same 'aberration'.

Come in Xtian - all is forgiven!

Regards to all.

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #140 on: October 13, 2009, 09:52:01 AM »

Have not followed all of this topic, so this idea might have been raised already.  As early TBD were very lightly built could the "fat pointy thing" be some form of protection for the bows?
It might also be handy in getting out of docks, TBD's not being the most maneuverable of vessels, put the "fat pointy thing" up against the dock wall, apply rudder and ahead to swing the stern.
GlynnG
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #141 on: October 13, 2009, 12:34:32 PM »

Aye Glynn, it's certainly a possibility given the questionable steering on these boats but unfortunately all the photos found sofar show the boats moored stern on or side on to the dock so no guidance either way. That's part of the reason why I'm building a decent size version for 'lab' testing.

Tony
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #142 on: October 13, 2009, 09:20:36 PM »

I Know this has been raised before but can't some of our "French Connection" check with the Paris Maritime Museum and put us out of our misery--- I tried the Greenwich Maritime Museum and ask about bow spirits on the British ones of the same time scale and was told that on long passages a bowsprit was some times put on so they could carry a staysail to help with fuel consumption ---- later a stronger steel one was used to tow mine sweeping gear and I still think the French used the same type of systime and that the Boxing Glove is a cover for blocks, sheeves or fittings  used in deployment  :-) I also toyed with it being used to assist in comming along side and mooring due to the light constrution of the vessels but it was pointed out to me that they are often of a very light constrution --- so---- I think we shall have to wait and see...the only thing I am sure of is that they were not used as a Jack staff "That's just a Red Herring--- If they wanted a Jack Staff a light weight portable pole set vert. in a socket not half a telegraph pole set horizontally would have been used :-))
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tobyker

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #143 on: October 13, 2009, 11:41:48 PM »

My friend John says is it for catting the anchor? The anchor is stowed a long way aft and you have to cat it outboard or it will open the tinwear on its way up.
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #144 on: October 16, 2009, 11:13:18 AM »

All of these are possibles BUT there's no evidence for anything.
None of the photos of these or similar French destroyers of the period(and there are loads on line), or the plans show any lines or fittings associated with the 'pole'.

It could be for a staysail but there's no indication of this being an option on the rigging plans and also, in the main on RN ships.
the bowsprit was a spare spar on the fordeck and not a permanent fixture stickin' outa front.

All the pics of the vessels at anchor or moored up show the lines or chains running from the deck sheaves. I'd have thought that catting from that far forward of the bow would have been just as risky to the hull but I'm bound to have missed something, somewhere and I'll keep plugging away.

I'm sure this is all a Gaullist plot.

Tony
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #145 on: October 16, 2009, 10:57:08 PM »

Tony
I think you are correct, Its a crafty French plot (Like the EU) to drive Us Brits Mad ---  :} :} :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #146 on: November 27, 2009, 09:59:05 AM »

Could this be the answer?
Photo in Dec 2009 Model Boats. The tug is the right period being built in 1895.

Are we actually there at last????!

Colin
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DickyD

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #147 on: November 27, 2009, 10:40:41 AM »

Check this out, not one anchor. Reckon its a throwback to the bowsprit

http://francois.delboca.free.fr/fsaviso.html
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #148 on: November 27, 2009, 05:03:47 PM »

The anchor would be stowed on deck until it was required for use. None of these pictures seem to help very much although I have read a suggestion that the pole was a vestigal bowsprit of no actual use. But if you look at pictures in Janes and elsewhere it does seem that there were two types of bowsprit, the very thin pole and a more substantial spar with what looked like a canvas covered fitting on the end.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #149 on: November 28, 2009, 05:43:50 PM »

Aye to all,

There's one (Picture 35) that shows the sprit with what looks like a sock over it and a couple of others that show, or at least suggest, fittings (Photo 53 for instance) but there's still no real answer.

One thing I did notice, apart from the fact that the French seem to prefer to photograph from the back, rather like the old Renault ads, was that Photo 23 shows a later ship with the same spar above a bow tube. Could it be that in this particular case the spar was part of the bow tube system?

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