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Author Topic: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer  (Read 59402 times)

Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #150 on: November 30, 2009, 09:18:32 PM »

Tony
Any more news on the bow sprit and uses of???
Hows the build comming on???
     Freebooter
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #151 on: December 02, 2009, 03:46:03 PM »

Hi JJ,

Still no resolution of the BIG question. Feelers out in all directions and the odd hint but that's all.

I've done a lot of the basic stuff on the build, such as cutting the frames etc. but I've stopped at the point of sorting access into the hull etc. simply because I want to clear up the matter of the flying deck and how to get all the grating it needs. That will determine the access system because it is, as you know, almost a submarine in form and I want to keep the wet stuff outside.
In the meanwhile I'm playing with a springer derivative. Check out the Vokswagen type 166.

Regards

Tony
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #152 on: December 04, 2009, 11:07:23 AM »

Build the model and mount it in a motorised, water tight, clear plastic box that way it will never get wet so no problems with water ingress :D :D :D :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #153 on: December 19, 2009, 06:01:06 PM »

Just out of interest, when i visited the london Science museum during the week I had a look at their models of old destroyers and torpedo boats. No luck I'm afraid but I did find this picture which clearly shows how a spar torpedo was rigged.

Colin

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ian kennedy

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #154 on: December 20, 2009, 05:29:51 PM »

Hi Tony,

According to a small photo and caption page 143 of the Arbalete (1903) one of the French Arquebuse class destroyers in the book Steam,Steel and Shellfire The steam warship 1815-1905 by Conways, The small bowsprit was useful in handling the anchors.

I think Colin hinted at this earlier but i have been rooting through some of my ref books trying to find you a more positive use/description to give you a answer....and the above this seems the most likely to date.

Merry Christmas to you all :-))

Ian
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #155 on: December 20, 2009, 05:42:15 PM »

Yes, I think the illustration on reply 146 above gives an indication of how it may have been used for anchor handling.

Colin
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2009, 08:20:30 PM »

I've been looking at the Pix  in the thread    http://francois.delboca.free.fr/fsaviso.html  The more I look at them the more I am convinced they were used mainly for anchor handling and possibly a 2nd dairy use like the British ones for mine sweeping or setting a passage sail ---- There are too many different designs of ship in this class fitted with a bowsprit for it to be just a decoration (Even for a French vessel) None of these TB's seemed to be using stockless anchors... given this  and the light construction and lively movements of these vessels I wouldn't want one of the old stile anchors swinging any where near my fragile shell plating until it was properly secured...Modern Yachts use a similar system for recovering and stowing anchors  ..the bowsprit could easily be rigged with a sheeve inserted in the end and a wire running to a ten/fiveteen ton SWL block to take the anchor warp ... The out board end would be protected with a canvas cover when not in use
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #157 on: December 23, 2009, 06:48:36 PM »

It's all still 'mebbe' but I think that it's probably closest to the truth.
 
There are what seem like thousands of photos of almost all members of almost all classes.
There are photos of the wrecks, above and below the water.
There are crew lists and histories.
There are stories of storms and almighty 'b****-ups' which indicate the lack of steering in the ships.
There is nothing yet to confirm anything.

The bracket/roller thingy in the photos of Reply 81 could, in fact, be a 'bolt-on' version of the rig shown on the steam launch and the lines which run round the bow could play a further part.
It just seems a bit, well, inelegant.

The shed is snowed in/out for the moment and I'm waiting for a price for the laser cutting of the grating for the flying deck.

Happy Christmas to all

Tony
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tobyker

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #158 on: December 23, 2009, 08:19:58 PM »

One of the pictures shows what looks like some steps down the hull on the same side as what might be a hinged bracket for swinging the anchor aft to the stowage position just under the gun platform, once it's been raised. The steps could be for hooking  the anchor to the bracket, or merely access to clear fouled lines.
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #159 on: December 23, 2009, 08:23:01 PM »

Ah! Tony
Have a Happy Yule Tide and A Very Merry New Year (Hic!!!)
Freebooter :-)) :}
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feinwerkbau

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #160 on: January 09, 2010, 03:39:09 AM »

Hi all,
This link doesn't help explain the items function but does show the Russian version on two 1/50th scale ships (very nice builds of Braviy & Grozny).
http://u-boat-laboratorium.com/index.php?page=gallery-model
Enjoy.

Roger.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #161 on: January 09, 2010, 09:56:47 AM »

Actually, I think the photos are quite helpful. One destroyer has bow mounted torpedo tubes, the other doesn't but the fitting is essentially the same on both so it can't be anything to do with torpedo handling.

The fitting is substantial and fixed in position which suggests that it is built to take a significant weight.

The glove on the end appears to be a cover for a boom end fitting - maybe a sheave.

There is a strop fitted along the side of the hull just below the deckline on both vessels.

To me it looks a virtual certainty that the gear is used for anchor handling. Remember, other lines/equipment to make it work may be stowed away out of sight when not required. All in all it does seem to tie in very well with the earlier photo I posted of the civilian vessel with anchor at the ready.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #162 on: January 09, 2010, 04:38:16 PM »

Lovely models Roger. Thanks for posting the discovery!

It's now at the point where civil law separates from the criminal variety.

'Balance of probability' v 'Proof'  <*<

It still niggles but after so much consideration and input from everybody it's probably right but I'm sure we'd all like to see just one blurred picture of  'The Thing' with even a bit of string attached to it!!!!!!!!!!

Happy New Year to all!

Tony

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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2010, 08:27:03 PM »

Great pictures Roger  The boxing glove looks very much like fendering to me which makes sense when you are bringing somthing so long and narrow along side a stone jetty or quay or indeed another vessel  But it really dosn't answer the question of the main purpose --- Hows your Russan ? maybe they would or could tell us what it was used for... Super Models
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #164 on: January 09, 2010, 10:04:59 PM »

I can't see how the "boxing glove" could be a fender. Whilst the spar might be quite sturdy, it isn't strong enough to take the weight of the whole vessel and any misjudgement when coming alongside is lilely to impact on the side of the bow. The spar would be likely to be well above the level of the dockside. The ship would use proper fenders slung over the side at the appropriate height when coming alongside, not rely on bashing the bowsprit against the dock or puncturing one of its flotilla mates!

Colin
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feinwerkbau

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2010, 01:07:52 AM »

Hi all,
Hopefully a member has a grasp on the French language and could translate this snippet of info in the attachments, fingers crossed it may shed some light on the matter at hand.
The plans are from the FCM site and of the Contre-Torpilleurs "Carabine""Sarbacane".
My initial thoughts were that the bowspirit may have been a 'hang-up' from the aux sail power days but on checking Torpilleur Aviso Type "Bombe" (plans show sails) that type does not have a bowspirit  :((. So checking a few other plans I'd downloaded I remembered "Carabine".
Anyways - more fuel for the fire  ;).
Hope the attachments attach !.
Roger.   
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2010, 10:14:01 AM »

Interesting!

1 seems to refer to "eyebolt for attaching straw cover to plug of shock" so maybe it is some sort of fender after all!

2 & 3 seem to refer to attachment points to "???? stretch" so probably are rigging or forestay attachments.

4 remorque= "haul" so proably associated with raising the anchor.

Hopefully somebody can do a better translation.

Colin
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hopeitfloats

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #167 on: January 10, 2010, 10:21:41 AM »

where's 'roger in france' when you need him
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #168 on: January 10, 2010, 10:27:22 AM »

Yes, I have sent for the cavalry!

Colin
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Richie

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2010, 11:25:31 AM »

Have sent information to friend in France so i will post reply if he can understand it.
Have tried various translators (Babel Fish etc) and have results:

1) Eye-bolt to mulch(straw) plug (buffer) of shocks

2) Bolt has shackle of 15mm for smoking tent (canvas) ?????

3) Eye-bolt of 15mm for chain fixing

4) Bolt of 30mm for ????? of tow (hauler)

6) Hand hold to seize the slipper anchor

More food for thought

Richie
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Roger in France

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2010, 11:40:50 AM »

I would suggest that #1 is referring to eyebolts for retaining a straw pad. So I think it is a buffer or fender.

Words change in any language. The current use of "tampon" in French means a rubber stamp used with an ink pad. Whilst "paille" is certainly "straw" it seems to be used here as "pailler",  the infinitive of a verb!

I do agree with those who have said that it is an unlikely weapon for charging the enemy and that at that height it would not be effective against many docksides as a fender (except at low tide?). However, like any protuberance it could, accidentally come into contact with anything and needed padding.

My French is about present day usage in everyday situations and so I will bow (happily) to a native French speaker with some knowledge of ancient usage and nautical practise!

Roger in France (....and not a very helpful one at that!)
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Roger in France

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2010, 11:54:11 AM »

In my last reply I was concentrating on #1, which I think was the original query.

Here is a little more:

"remorque" usually means a towed trailer,  a "remorquer" is a tug. I think "pentoir" is a French nautical equivalent of a boats rope for mooring or tying up, in English a "painter"  and so I think #4 is a towing point.

Roger in France
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2010, 02:18:20 PM »

So 2 & 3 refer to the awning, while 1 & 4 seem to be a towbar/fender arrangement. The latter would presuppose that the towing ship wa somewhat higher than the tow.
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tobyker

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2010, 10:24:16 PM »

One of the menaings of "Tampon (Fr)" is "Buffer", so i think the bolts are to hold the straw pad of the shock buffer - so I think the FPT must be simply a buffer. 2 and 3 are I suspect bracing (guy rope?) bolts for the tente/awning. and the pentoire de remorque is I suspect a wire rope to take the strain of towing to those rather hefty oblong plates bolted to the collision bulkhead.

I can't find my big french dictionary right now, and the trouble with all the web dictionairies is that they seem to translate wods not phrases, and we are using nautical jargon at least 70 years out of date.
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RickF

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2010, 11:35:20 PM »

As a fan of all things "torpedo boat" I have followed this thread through its meanderings, but not being a Francophile I've kept out of it since my earlier post. But  ....  in the early days these craft were always moored to a mother or depot ship, usually with a much higher freeboard. Mooring them bow- or stern-on would allow more to congregate around the depot ship. Having a fixed fender would make this procedure easier.

Just a thought

Rick
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