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Author Topic: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer  (Read 59356 times)

Perkasaman2

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2009, 06:05:00 PM »

Hi Roger, six days to fill a wine rack? How many bottles did you bring? :o
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Roger in France

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2009, 06:10:54 PM »

No, no....... Working at satisfying my requirements since returning !

Went to a family party in the UK and took 70 l. of good stuff  which was much enjoyed by those attending two days of birthdays and wedding anniversaries !

Roger in France
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2009, 07:10:43 PM »

Roger doesn't deal in bottles, just Tuns....
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2009, 10:00:50 PM »

 :-))Could do with a tun or two myself (Aussie Red) or Madeira would be nice or a decent Port :D :D
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Roger in France

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2009, 06:24:22 AM »

Quick, quick in case there is a Watcher about......ROGER DOES NOT DEAL !

Roger in France
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2009, 10:37:31 AM »

We take for granted the obvious advantages of a raked bow with some degree of flare, especially in faster hulls, in the majority of sea conditions (much drier etc). During this earlier period of design/evolution perpendicular bows were common and probably much easier to fabricate. My local museum used to display a huge collection of Manufacturer's models, mainly of warships built by  Messrs. Armstrong from approx 1880 - WW2. Generally the earlier the design the more closely their hulls and some features resemble ships of the much slower sail power period, including bowsprits and other apparently quite useless features - bow/stern ornament - for aesthetic purposes. I think this bowsprit feature is a little bit of 'sporty bling' on this early French example of their 'greyhound of the seas'. These were probably  a 'peace time building' feature prior to WW1 and consequently not retained. I only recall one early warship model with a 'ram bow' and it also had open main turrets  and an open skeletal bridge structure. :o   
A few models are still displayed including my favourite, HMS Nelson (1927 Treaty). I hope the rest of these wonderful models are safe in a large basement somewhere.  :-)
BTW Richard is definately an 'honoured guest' at my next birthday 
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Niall

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2009, 10:59:40 AM »

The first torpedoes were an explosive charge on a spar mounted infront of the ship. These are the torpedoes admiral Farragut refered to ("Full speed and Dxxx the torpedoes") during the American civil war. For these to be effective the spar was angled downwards to the explosion would be near the water line. These would be long out of service when this ship was built.

The spar on this ship seems to be a bowsprite.The lump on the end of the Japanese ship looks like a fender to me.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2009, 11:21:37 AM »

I think Farragut was referring to what we now call mines rather than spar torpedoes.

Colin
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Xtian29

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2009, 10:08:15 AM »

Hello

Very nice thread  :-))  As said Arrow5 I was at sea last week where I still have access to Internet but not for sites like forums.  so I've received the PM from via the transfert to my personnal e-mail but no way to come here ...

Just for fun, one of my pics taken during that time (click on picture for bigger size)



About the like jib boom on this "torpilleur", after reading this thread I was close to think like Perkasaman : ornament, aesthetic and useless but after search on my own books I'have seen many pictures of many differents "torpilleurs" and most have this boom with like a removal plug at the end ... I know a man who's certainely know the answer and I will try to contact him this week.

As I don't like to leave a question without answer, I will try my best. 

About the staggered props - I'm sure : this is a solution to the problem appeared some time on so narrow ships as the designer need large size props.

Now about the rudder, I remember that it was some trial in this period. The power requested to move a rudder situated aft of the props at 30 knots was a problem at that time (no hydraulic) so they need reduction that means no speed and long reaction time.

So it was one of the tested solution. I'm not sure about the success as later no more ships will be built like that. But soon after that time power was available to move large rudder with reliable steam actuator.

This "around 1900" french navy was later nicknammed "stupid young navy" as many of these ships were designed by young engineers who tried any sorts of solutions ... some one with silly technical and weapon. 

Have a nice week-end ...  >:-o I've to cut the "xxxxx".... grass in my garden 

A+ Xtian
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2009, 10:46:54 PM »

Hello Xtian,

Thanks for the answers to two of the questions. The position of the rudder was a real challenge but it must have worked fairly well with a semi-balanced system. I look forward to seeing how effective it was when I do trials on my model.

I look forward to news on the boom because there seems to be no logical answer.

Now you can relax after the mowing!

Regards

Tony
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2009, 12:00:59 AM »

Been mulling over this bowsprit thing and I wonder if it was used for more than one thing...Aesthetics  and  as for the Japanese one I also thought it looked like a fender and wondered the if on a long narrow hulls like this that didn't steer well at slow speeds it was used to limit damage to hulls by acting as a guide and fender when comming alongside ... easer to replace or repair a wooden spar than shell plating.... An off the wall shot I know but funner things have been tried {:-{ {:-{
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derekwarner

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2009, 02:31:53 AM »




Quote........Just for fun, one of my pics taken during that time (click on picture for bigger size)

Xtian....why was the FFG......[Oliver Perry Class] allowed to slice in front of HMS York D98?........neither are listening for submarines are they! .......... :o ...Derek


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Xtian29

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2009, 08:14:00 AM »

Hello

In fact we were all four ships in line with the russian Severomorsk - USS Klakring - HMS York and French Tourville.  The Klakring has to deviate during the helo ops aboard the Severomorsk, on this picture she returns to its place in the line.

a+ Xtian

 
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farrow

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2009, 10:52:41 PM »

The bowsprit only has a bobstay, so setting sails is out and as it is so meaty, I was wondering if it is for taking the weight of the anchor chain when the anchor is in use. Such as a Mediterranean moor, which most vessels would use in the Med, in doing so it kept the chain of the stem keeping the paintwork clean and balancing the moor better. On the other hand French warships are renowned for large ensigns, so it could be used for the Jackstaff!!!
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hopeitfloats

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #64 on: June 30, 2009, 07:14:30 AM »

probably of no use at all but a photo i found on the net shows the inside of the tube being square.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #65 on: June 30, 2009, 09:06:48 AM »

Quote
probably of no use at all but a photo i found on the net shows the inside of the tube being square.

So maybe it was used as a socket for some other fitting and that would explain the "boxing glove" which would be a canvas bag to keep the water out.

Something to do with anchoring seems to be the most likely purpose.

Colin
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #66 on: June 30, 2009, 12:36:04 PM »

There is one photo that I've found showing the ship moored up to a buoy and there don't appear to be any lines further forward than the anchor hawse points. Also, the cross section in the drawing that Colin downloaded suggests that the bowsprit is solid and round.

It's a b****r

Tony
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #67 on: June 30, 2009, 12:45:01 PM »

I don't think the bowsprit would have been used as a mooring point as that would not be strong enough but it might, as Old Dodes suggests, have been used to take the weight of the anchor when pulling it up as far as the surface when it wouldn't have weighed too much, At that point a line would have been shackled onto it from the anchor handing davit. The bowsprit would have kept the anchor clear of the stem - modern motor yachts often carry their anchors on an extension to the bow to avoid scratching the gelcoat!
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Jimmy James

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #68 on: June 30, 2009, 08:58:25 PM »

Do you think it was used as a starting point for keel - hauling drunken Maltose
I do so like a good keeli-hauling :-)) :-)) {-)
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2009, 09:01:17 PM »

I agree with Tony, it's really frustrating this one. Someone, somewhere must know the answer!

Colin
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rob

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2009, 09:16:39 PM »

For carrying the white flags ?
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2009, 09:15:17 PM »

Hopefully our colleagues 'sur le continong' can come up with the answer which I'm sure ain't the one Rob suggested. Certainly the wrong period for that one anyway.

I've also looked at the 'bobstay' possibility but I think that the shackle etc. below the pole is for a towline or similar. The line is drawn parallel to the waterline and would only coincide with the bowsprit at infinity. That said, why include the line in the drawing? Is it connected in some other (non-bobstay) way?

Tony
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2009, 09:33:22 PM »

Still no answer but, in the meanwhile, I've been building a 1:96 one for inspiration - if any.

It's rather like building a sub, I should imagine, because it was obviously a very wet boat. The small 'lumps' coming up from the hull are a mix of hatch tubes or skylights. All activity took place on a flying deck and the whole hull would be virtually submerged in a heavy sea, rather like the Monitor. Deckhouses were entered via hatches rather than doors. I've left the deck template for the forward third in place to show.

One thing that has arisen in the build that I hadn't noticed from the plans is that having the rudder ahead of the props means that the rudder hits the shafts at anything over about 20 degrees from centre. It must have ben a pig to manouvre with little helm and virtually no effect from opposite screws because they are so close together relative to the length of the hull.

At 1:96 displacement is about 12 oz. Hull is 2mm balsa on 2mm ply frames with doped tisue inside and out. Weight so far with motors, shafts and props, 1 mini servo and ESC is 6 oz.

Tony
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tobyker

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2009, 09:49:25 PM »

That is indeed an odd position for the rudder. I had thought they were like some of the early steam torpedo boats - in line with the shafts and split above and below. I'm surprised that the rudder wasn't notched in line with the shafts to give a bit more angle. Manoeuvering to come alongside must have been a bit tricky. Maybe the fat pointy thing was a socket for a sprung bowsprit/bumper (only joking - I still think it's a socket for a spar torpedo).
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tonyH

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Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2009, 10:43:44 PM »

That's the trouble - it may not be a joke and there was a matey on the dockside with a big forked stick to fend off the approaching vessel!

You can see what Xtian was about regarding 'young designers' being given their head.

Tony
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