Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10   Go Down

Author Topic: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer  (Read 59403 times)

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2009, 05:53:23 PM »

Hello

Very nice job ! I like the picture showing the staggered props and the rudder ahead !

12 oz  %% (hopefully there is conversion table on Internet ... 340 grammes !) my smaller model is 10 kg  {-) my bigger 100 kg !

I've ask about the jib boom to one "old navy specialist" and he think about aesthetic, but not 100% sure !

He's sure that it's not for weapon like torpedoes or other (and not to fly the "white flag"   <*<)  But I'm still waiting for an answer from the "Master Specialist" who's on holydays (holydays for retired person ???? ) until 15th August !

About manoeuvering, it was very easy with steam to "differencier les lignes d'arbre" I don't know the word in english but the idea is to have one shaft in higher speed than the other or stopped or one in forward and one in reverse.  With the arrival of the first diesel it was quite more difficult but with steam it was the regular way to manoeuver the rudder was only used for open sea sailing.

A+ Xtian 
 

 
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2009, 10:36:33 PM »

Hi Xtian,

Thanks for the ideas.

I understand the 'differencier les lignes d'arbre' but with a long thin hull and the propellors so close together the effect would be very limited n'est ce que pas? Especially during mooring.

Tony
Logged

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2009, 08:48:54 AM »

Hello

I understand the 'differencier les lignes d'arbre' but with a long thin hull and the propellors so close together the effect would be very limited n'est ce que pas? Especially during mooring.

Of course with a narrow hull it's works less but it's works better than any rudder without speed and any rudder ahead of props !

On your model you intend to have one or two speed controller ?

A+ Xtian   
Logged

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19,058
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2009, 02:02:17 PM »

Topic renamed.   :-)
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2009, 07:46:49 PM »

Looking at the Prop--Rudder arrangment -- I still think at slow speeds she will handle like a super tanker with a hang-over and don't think going ahead on one and astern on the other will do much --- BUT!!! I wonder if putting the rudder hard over and backing into a berth you might have more control --- with an anchor at short stay to control the bow I think it could done with out bashing up the iron work or scratcking too much paint work...something like the way a modern supply v/l berths today.... I can't see if you would have any control at all going ahead at slow speeds... What do you chaps think?????
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2009, 08:52:09 PM »

Hello

I'm almost sure that with one ahead and one astern this ship is manoeuvrable specialy as the steam is very smooth and forget the rudder for low speed.

I remember that following my Grand Father the Volta and Mogador with a length/breadth ratio very similar to the Arquebuse (137/12 - 58,3/6,4) was able to come or to leave harbor almost always alone (without tug) and this was possible because of the smooth steam and "en différenciant les lignes d'arbre) Anyone who's experienced steam knows about what I'm talking with smooth steam.   

A link to the Arquebuse class history with some pics ! 

http://pages14-18.mesdiscussions.net/pages1418/Forum-Pages-d-Histoire-aviation-marine/marine-1914-1918/torpilleurs-arquebuse-contre-sujet_660_1.htm

Anyone interresting with a postal card copy ?

http://www.familles.com/cartes-postales-Torpilleur-L-Arquebuse-76600-LE-HAVRE-76-seine-maritime-464336-65396-detail.html

A+ Xtian
Logged

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 19,058
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!"    -   Mayhem FaceBook Group!

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2009, 11:47:35 PM »

'Ells Bells Martin,

What on earth is she doing with an AA tow-bar! At least that's what the bracket coming up from the mounting half way up the bow seems to be on the top photo! The plot thickens.

As far as the manouevring on the screws is concerned, wouldn't the fact that the screws overlap have a major effect? The best you could achieve would be to stop one engine rather than reversing it.

Tony

Logged

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2009, 06:18:16 AM »

Hello

Thank's Martin for the enlargements  :-))

As far as the manouevring on the screws is concerned, wouldn't the fact that the screws overlap have a major effect?

Yes of course, don't add soap to the water as you will have foam  ;D

The best you could achieve would be to stop one engine rather than reversing it.

No as with one ahead and one astern, the ship turn but "playing" smoothly with the power you can also ajust going forward or goin astern. It's really a pleasure to manoeuver like that.

A+ Xtian 
   
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2009, 09:33:43 AM »

Hi Xtian,

Luckily the prototype model is small enough to sail in the bath (Sans Savon!) so I've decided to use it as a test bed and fit 2 speed controllers to see what the effect is. The scale effect is going to be large but at least some result may be indicated.

As far as the pointy thing is concerned, the large enlargement that shows the port bow shows a long angled bar that runs through what appears to be a roller to what seems to be a ring about the same diameter as the boom. Is there a link between them and why have what seem to be ladder rungs down the side to the horizontal chain?

I wonder if the boom can be extended forward, with the bar as a brace. It still leaves the 'what is it for' question but...

Regards

Tony

Logged

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2009, 10:51:46 AM »

Hello

.... the bath (Sans Savon!) so I've ....

 {-)     {-)     {-)

A+ Xtian 
Logged

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #86 on: July 17, 2009, 10:06:12 PM »

XTIAN29
  I have handled both large and small steam ships and both turbine and resipucating engines in the navy and the merchant navy and a steam whale catcher they are not as all as smoth as you think and on some you can have over a 30 second delay when going from ahead to asrern...
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #87 on: July 18, 2009, 12:07:23 PM »

Hello

I don't have the chance to experience manoeuvrer with old fashion steam ship (only steam turbine on nuclear aircraft carrier and large destroyer  :embarrassed:

I agree with you about the reversing time and that means that you have to anticipate which is the first step for any nice ship manoeuver.  But this problem was the same aboard of old fashion diesel.

When I speak about smooth I'm thinking for exemple about steam tug which do not break the line like diesel tug as with diesel (fixed prop) when you engage the shaft the ship goes to rapidly to 5 knots.

So you have to play with order like "forward 0 for 2 seconds" etc...  With steam you don't have this problem and you can run the shaft  at 1rpm if you want.

It's the same even with modern nuclear aircraft carrier and I've seen the Charles de Gaulle coming into the Brest harbor with the portside prop in reverse for 3 miles - the starboard in forward and just playing with the RPM....   She come to the quay alone (tugs connected but towline without tension).

In fact one of the best propulsion for manoeuver is electric  ( diesel / electric - steam / electric )         

A+ Xtian

 
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,046
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #88 on: July 18, 2009, 01:26:08 PM »

Reciprocation type engines....pistons...[up & downers] .......be they diesel or steam have the functional ability to be stopped & reversed  O0 ...in a relatively short time cycle ...for land lovers  ;D remember the engine room scene from the movie 'Titanic'....when the bridge command was for engines ASTERN

As Xtian suggests........steam turbines are fine but were never designed for manoeuvrering ....however the newer gas turbines with LIPPS variable pitch props...just love the HUGE mW's of power & astern thrust...  O0 Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2009, 11:51:43 PM »

Ah! But on the v/l's we talking about had fixed pitch prop's not C.P. and the engines were up & downers ---I still say that with the prop's overlapping they would handle like single screw ships and that the twin screws were more for speed than anything else and would have been almost useless for maneuvering BUT time will tell I shall watch this site with great interest and can't wait to here the results of the sailing trials
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2009, 09:55:50 PM »

Just a quick update on the MkI model (1:96). Weight so far is 10.5oz including 4xAA cells which leaves 1.5 oz for Rx and 2 small ESC's which should be possible.
Hardest part was making the supports for the flying deck but used shaped cutter (See photo) whch screwed onto the end of a variable temp. soldering iron.

Tony
Logged

farrow

  • Guest
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2009, 10:44:41 AM »

Steam recip engines can go from full ahead to full astern instantly, that is why the old steam tug masters had such a job getting used to diesel engines which have to reduce revs for the gearbox to reverse the shaft for them. I have worked on a steam recip ship with a single rudder, when the vessel was dead in the water you ignore the rudder, it is the paddle wheel effect of the screws which turn you, ie right hand throw and a left hand throw props when going astern and ahead. I would think that these destroyers if they have opposing throw propellors would be quite manoeuvrable when stopped in the water and being steam recip the power would be as quick as the telegraph could be read and applied in the engine room which would be quicker than many people realise, especially on a naval vessel with a large engine room crew.
Also looking at the close up of the bows, it looks like a bobstay on some hanging off the bow, with a ring which could be quickly slipped over the end of the spar and the stay adjusted for tension.
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »

But why have the spar in the first place, apart from artistic licence? The top photo from the ones that Martin included shows a rigid stay, not just a rope one, with what appears to be a roller sheave, which could swing round to re-inforce the location of the spar - but why?
Logged

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2009, 09:36:12 PM »

TonyH
  An old shipmate of mine said that the RN used to deploy explosive cutters for mine sweeping from a bowsprit like boom fixed on some of the older WW1 destroyers---- the idea being to carry the gear as far fwd as possible
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2009, 03:36:28 PM »

Sounds like a solid idea JJ.

Apparently, the use of 'cowcatchers' was authorised from 1908 in the RN, and tests had been carried out in 1878, so the timing would be about right.

My gut feeling is that it's going to be a toss-up between that and the simple anti torpedo boat ram, old habits dying hard in the French navy of the time.

Tony
Logged

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2009, 09:20:25 PM »

TonyH
I Agree. But its perplexing gust the same.  Still no info. from out French friends or perhaps they are to embarrassed to tell us :} :} :}
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2009, 09:43:15 PM »

No, no confirmation from Le Continong, but Xtian's pal was on hols.

On the mine-sweeping side, I went through a load of RN destroyer photos from the period last night and a number show what appears to be a heavy boom stowed on the fore deck which may/may not be our equivalent. There is also a fair amount of info on mine countermeasures on line but I haven't been able to find how the 'cowcatcher' was actually deployed.

I have, though, been in touch with a neighbour who was in the RN between the wars and he's carrying the 'pointy' torch further.

Tony
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,269
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2009, 02:35:19 PM »

The Cow (Mine) catcher - plus someones washing!
Logged

Xtian29

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 511
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2009, 07:43:39 PM »

Hello

I still have no answer from the specialist who's on holidays even if he's already retired  <*< Expected return in september !

Last week-end I was talking about that with a friend who's not a mariner but a "rat de bibliothèque" and he said that he have a souvenir of a text talking about this "bout-dehors" (french name of this part)  Nothing explain the reason of this but the text was about tow as it's hazardous to have a tow line connected when the ship is equipped with a bowsprit so it's why there is a towing device with a cable fixed down to the bow sprit.  For him the bowsprite is just aesthetic as for some people at that time mast must be tall even if there is no more sail and a "bout-dehors" is needed like a noze on a man face ...   

I'm almost sure that this bowsprite have nothing to do with mine sweeping.  There is only one picture with this roller : it should be for mooring reason as most of those ships where moored "cul à quai" perpendicular to the quay aft to the quay with bow on buoy 

A nice picture of one of those Contre-Torpilleurs

 

A+ Xtian (waiting for september and the return of the specialist ...)


Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 10,290
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Fat pointy thing! - Arquebuse class French destroyer
« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2009, 08:34:02 PM »

When you look at the various pictures there seem to be two types of "bowsprit". A light version which may indeed have been just aesthetic and a more substantial one which appears to have a fitting of some sort on the end.

We must get to the bottom of this, I'm losing sleep over it!  <*<

Colin
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10   Go Up