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Author Topic: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build  (Read 41326 times)

ids987

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2009, 12:51:58 PM »

Hi Ramon,

That is exactly what it does. usually you set the height so that the fuel is about level with the spraybar - what you might call a neutral position. The main point is that it gives a consistent mixture. Because it changes very little, you adjust the needle accordingly. Without a float chamber, there is a tendency to run rich in parts of the course - and lean in others. Add to that the overall level change from full to empty. You then have to try and set the mixture so that it never goes lean - meaning that it spends a lot of the time running rich. Smaller tanks will not be as susceptible to this, but with big tanks, it is a real problem. Both the moving mass of fuel, and also the level change between full and empty.
More on pipes later. I'm off work this week with the kids away - up to my eyes trying to demolish and rebuild the kitchen before they get back
I'll drop you a PM a bit later as well.

Float chambers are great, there's nothing to go wrong in them %)

Hmmm, The "cheap" ones which most people use don't tend to shut off against full pressure - resulting in overflow and lost fuel. I also have one where the float doesn't float straight and therefore catches on the side - meaning it doesn't always shut off.

Ian
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2009, 01:24:40 PM »

I'm loving this build     O0   ;D

Well put Mook!   :-))
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gwa84

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #52 on: August 04, 2009, 06:55:48 PM »

been watching this from the start loving it cant wait to see this beast flat out on the water
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #53 on: August 04, 2009, 08:55:15 PM »

Quote
That is exactly what it does. usually you set the height so that the fuel is about level with the spraybar - what you might call a neutral position. The main point is that it gives a consistent mixture. Because it changes very little, you adjust the needle accordingly. Without a float chamber, there is a tendency to run rich in parts of the course - and lean in others. Add to that the overall level change from full to empty. You then have to try and set the mixture so that it never goes lean - meaning that it spends a lot of the time running rich. Smaller tanks will not be as susceptible to this, but with big tanks, it is a real problem. Both the moving mass of fuel, and also the level change between full and empty.
More on pipes later. I'm off work this week with the kids away - up to my eyes trying to demolish and rebuild the kitchen before they get back
I'll drop you a PM a bit later as well.

Hi Ian, yes thought so, :-)) just couldn't see how the fuel was pressurised at the carb. Though of course I have never used one I can see that the use of a float chamber will eliminate all the changes of head of fuel in the tanks throughout the run. This is what we tried to do in aerobatics with the so called 'uniflow' set up. It gave a very consistent run no matter what attitude the aircraft was in but of course as you state the tanks were much smaller. If you have ever seen control line aerobatics though you will appreciate the rapid change of forces involved that are placed on the fuel throughout the flight.
I shall see if I can fit one in, (as well as the expansion chamber you referred to) which will also give me just a little bit more fuel capacity. I don't think I can get one very close to the carb though - unless I move the radio gear which at his stage I don't really want to consider - is there a max distance from the carb? I guess it would be back to the 'suction' issue - closer the better.

No progress today - like yourself, 'domestic interference' but at least it's been outdoors in the garden. ok2

Next stage is to jury rig a drill to be able to drill horizontally through the fins (which are angled out) for the wing bolts and to make the wing as well. Then it's all ahead on the superstructure to finish it off. Don't get too excited guys - it's got to be painted after that!!

On that topic have you or has anyone else used the thin Ripmax SP113 epoxy resin for sealing the wood before the paint is applied. I'm thinking that this may be a much better way to seal the wood.

It's nice to hear that one or two are getting some pleasure from this  :-) I don't have a digi video camera but can see that I'm going to have to get someone to record the big moment.

Regards for now - Ramon
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #54 on: August 04, 2009, 09:47:56 PM »

Aaah, sometimes best meant intentions go awry :embarrassed: -

Andy, my apologies - I didn't mean to ignore you - thanks for coming in on this float chamber point too.

It has to be said that the fact that others are enjoying it is in most part down to members like yourself only too keen to respond with help and advice.

Thanks to all of you out there - passive or participant - you make this forum what it is - BRILLIANT.

Regards - Ramon

 

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andyn

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2009, 09:56:47 PM »

We just can't wait to see it go, the invitation to our lake will always stand :-))
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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #56 on: August 04, 2009, 10:20:40 PM »

Ramon not sure what ripmax epoxy is but what you need is slow setting epoxy something like 3 hr epoxy so it gets chance to soak into the grain.Use a credit card to spread it on very thin then  scrape most of it off so you get thin coats,usually 3 is sufficient but remember to sand between coats to keep things smooth.If you do it this way you will have very little sanding to do to get it smooth once the 3rd coat is on and then shes ready for paint.
Mart
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andyn

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #57 on: August 04, 2009, 10:27:23 PM »

Ripmax's epoxy is good, for wing skinning I believe?

Same stuff sold by East Coast Fibreglass Supplies, so I assume it's good stuff. As Martin says apply it with a credit card or similar, I use 1/64th" aluminium, works well.
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #58 on: August 04, 2009, 10:35:24 PM »

Thanks Mart,
I believe the Ripmax SP113 epoxy is the same as the 'West (System?)' It's a very thin and fluid epoxy designed for skinning wings etc.
I used it to coat the insides of the Huntsman and the lower half of the AvL before I ran out of it. Got some on order though. Obviously this was just painted on and left but can see where you are coming from with the credit card - they have their uses besides getting rid of your cash eh?

I notice the top skins have some very bad grain 'plucks' in the surface so these will need filling first - I thought I'd use P38. I'll do as you suggest - I'm assuming you had no paint adhesion problems going on to epoxy? Did you use cellulose ?


That's it for now - back tomorrow
Ramon
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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #59 on: August 05, 2009, 12:29:44 AM »

Ive used both cellulose paint and also acrylic over epoxy but as im not a nitro burner im not sure which if any of those is nitro proof.Obviously both will need clear coating,i usually use acrylic laquer on both types and it seems to work ok.Another cheap paint to try is plasticoat but that will also need clearing over,maybe try some with some nitro see if its fuel proof .Maybe someone else can help you more on that one,Andy ?  :-)).Regarding filling the wood grain just use a good filler ive even used wood filler,its going to be sealed in with epoxy anyway right  ok2.Or try halfords for some car body filler you can even pick it up in bulk on ebay for about 12-18 quid for a big tin,for that you usually get about 10-14 halfords size tins worth in one large tin so that works out at about 50 quid or more if you bought em seperateley lol.So you make a big saving  :-))
Mart
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/U-POL-EASY-1-CAR-BODY-FILLER-3-5L-TIN_W0QQitemZ180317817498QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint?hash=item29fbc78a9a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
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Baz2

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2009, 02:41:49 PM »


    Hi Andyn

           How do you apply your fuel proofer, do you use a brush or an airbrush?

               Thanks

                                  Baz
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andyn

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2009, 02:42:44 PM »

I brush it. Wouldn't want it to clog the airbrush then have to work out how to remove it...
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MRZIPPYXXXX

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #63 on: August 06, 2009, 01:23:47 AM »

Hi Ramon,
I have followed your brilliant masterclass in Huntsman building, and now along with fellow club mates, following your stunning AVL build with great interest.
I hope I may be able to shed some light on SP113 having used it throughout my recent Swordsman build, heregoes - Structural Polymer Systems are based on the Isle of Wight, and have a very helpful technical guy should you wish to call him ! although in his opinion he would not reccomend 133 and favours other products in their range,
but these come in lager bottles, are even more expensive and not available at your local model shop, which in precisely why I use SP113.
The big secret to applying is to use disposable foam mini paint rollers, (B&Q it All etc - and yes I along with the cheapskates can cut them in half with a razor saw!)
you will be amazed how roller lets you mould the glass cloth around compound curves etc, I have covered a 5foot glider fuselage with a single piece of cloth pushed
around the curves by the foam roller, it stays stuck to tiny 3/16 square Swords sprayrails without lifting, making boat hulls a doddle.
I use Davids Isopon P38 car body filler under the Halfords paint with success, and also "microballoons" filler powder you mix with resin (aeromodelling trick avail modelshops).
SP can also be thinned down with Isopropyl Alcohol available from local chemists, I have used this thinned like tap water as a primer on fast electric racers
where weight is an issue!
I reccomend going throught the pain of glass clothing from a strength and more importantly, stability point of view, my Swords has been on the water for around 18 months
and the only area I did not reinforce (transom) with cloth is now starting show stress cracks? in the paint, from the bottom of the steepV feathering out up the transom. The Americans use this system throughout on their lightweight balsa 36" class scale hydros, see www.classicthunder website, this should keep you occupied for a few hours.
Also in the states they use the resin/cloth system over planked hulls on varnished Chris Crafts etc and the very fine weave of the glass disappears completely when finished leaving a high gloss burnished glass like finish, to coin the phrase of "boat trapped in an ice cube finish". Hope this may be of some help.
Regards Paul
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MRZIPPYXXXX

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2009, 01:24:36 AM »

Further to above post just found this info the guy at SPsystems is Martin on 01983 828103 and he recommended their SP320 resin. Paul
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2009, 09:08:22 AM »

Morning guys just a quick one to say thanks for your seemingly endless interest  :-)) Have 'taken it all in' Paul  :-))   :-)) - I will respond later.
Managed to get some primer on the Huntsman yesterday at last so want to get out and give it a good sanding for the next coat.
Back later - Ramon
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2009, 05:15:10 PM »

Hi again guys, despite the warm and somewhat muggy weather I have managed to get the primer coats on the Huntsman on today. That is going to have to harden for a few days so it's back on the hydro O0
Thanks again for this informative input - especially the links and details on the resin Paul - it's certainly helped to see a bit more clearly ahead.

Now, where to start? .........I have applied .6oz glass cloth to quite a few aircraft in the past but have always used Ripmax 'Tufcote' fuel proofer as the resin. Main reason is the very speedy cure rate on the model - 25/30 mins coupled with the long useage rate of the mixed resin in the cup - depending on temperature can be several hours or even overnight if put in the fridge. Quite the reverse to epoxy or poly' resin. It has to be said that while it does'nt have the substance of epoxy it does live up to it's name when fully cured - very tough and resilient.
I like the idea of the foam roller technique - I have always brushed the tufcote resin through the cloth onto the bare wood ie no resin on before applying the cloth, using a very fine and soft haired 3/4" wide brush - working from a central point this spreads the cloth out as you go and is very effective. Are you putting epoxy on the model first or doing it in a similar fashion?

I don't want to combine two threads here however... the Huntsman has been finished in a 'conventional' cellulose 'model aircraft' type process but have to say I'm not really happy that this is going to stand up to the rigours of being on the water for very long.
To that end then I have previously been thinking, and can now see, that with (wooden) boat finishes it would be much better if the initial 'primer' was epoxy ie the waterproofing would be in the fibres of the wood itself, it would add strength and fill minor blemishes if scraped off in the manner suggested. With your confirmation that it will take a variety of finishes that makes it even more of a good choice and I shall certainly be finishing off the hydro in this fashion.

Regarding fuel proofer or 'clear coating' - the finish I have used in the past, and very successfully too, is a two pack resin 'floor finish' that I obtained from the paint finish company 'Morelli's'. This can be thinned with cellulose thinner, sprays very easilly without creating that sandpaper like overspray that some fuelproofers do and gives a beautiful finish which can be cut back and polished to a brilliant shine if desired. I carried out some tests when I first bought it - dries in 20 mins and did not react to 5% nitro after 30mins! Highly recommended if you have the facility to spray but I must add that this has only been used over cellulose finishes and you definitely need to wear a respirator as a minimum precaution.

Thanks again guy's you really are 'the biscuit'  :-)) :-))

Regards for now - Ramon
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MRZIPPYXXXX

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2009, 12:51:13 AM »

Hi Ramon,
My application technique was trial and error with some advice from a pal who builds the big 2 metre span lightweight competition aerobatic aircraft.
I mix small amounts of straight SP113, not thinned, enough to work on one hull skin at a time.
With the hull propped to get the skin as horizontal as feasible with a curved surface, pour on a puddle and roller it out wetting the surface,
the roller (cut in half) covers a big area very quickly, much faster and even coating than by brushing.
Drape over the glass cloth allowing it to catch around a central point, and roller it out, pressing the cloth into the resin.
The trick is getting the thickness of resin correct, once mastered, the cloth seems to float suspended in the resin, and we get a good glossy flat finish straightaway,
if you can see the texture of the weave, roller on more resin while it's wet.
My past experiences with brushes have usually ended in disaster, when the brush catches the cloth, lifting it or laddering it, or pulling out the fibres etc,
finally ending up in the bin, the roller seems so easy to use!
The tech guy at SP recommended heating up the surface of the model and the pot of resin, to thin it, with a solarfilm heat gun! this helps it to flow better !!
Not sure about the fuel proofing of Halfords paint, my pal tried their Petrol resistant motorcycle fuel tank lacquer on his beautiful fully vinyl graphiced Cigarette
with disastrous results, not only did it lift said vinyl graphics, but also pickled off Halfords own paint ! 
I don't have this problem to worry about myself because, I hardly dare mention in present company, mines powered by one of those fast battery thingies,
will get back to you about my future plans - 2" to foot scale Huntsman or to be different perhaps a Huntress with twin brushless, sound generators, smoke the works,
finished also as round Britain racer, love anything produced by Fairey, have you seen the speeds they are getting these days out of the really big model lifeboats
weighting 1/2 cwt, with Brushless power.
Regards Paul
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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2009, 08:39:59 AM »

I picked this massive hull up a while back for 50 quid  ok2 but it has no top yet,i wont be building her into a spearfish which i think shes designed as? or similar as i want to make her into a more modern style cruiser,shes 54"long.Layup is very very heavy so ill either sand it all away on the inside as theres pools of resin etc or ill mould off it and  make a lighter one.Sory for going of topic a little Ramon,im still watching your build i just have no input as regards nitro motors theyre just not my thing.
Mart
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Ramon

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2009, 10:13:48 PM »

Hi Guys, Interesting post Paul,  :-)) I shall certainly use epoxy as a 'primer' on the hull now and get some rollers as you suggest. When you say 'mini rollers' are these the ones about 4" wide? and what weight of cloth are you using? Can you recommend a good source for supplying the cloth mail order.

I have warmed the work piece before but I'm surprised at the suggestion to warm the pot as well as this surely could kick off the process quicker than the resin can get used. Granted it was polyester but I remember mixing up too much when I first used G/F. As I was laying the resin on suddenly the jar became incredibly hot, the resin bubbling, cracking and spitting, setting extremely rapidly in the jar in front of me. Quite an alarming sight (well it was to me) if you don't know what is happening - which I didn't at the time. I've found it much better once mixed to pour the resin in a flat shallow dish which helps hold this exothermic reaction off.

I've found the SP site and take heart that it will accept most finishes. I still have quite a bit of cellulose left over from aircraft use so that's what I will use finishing off with the 'floor finish' previously mentioned.

I've had 'one or two' finishing disasters in my time as well but by the sound of it your friend had a real gut wrencher. One thing I have learnt is to try and keep the finishing products compatible.  Acrylic over a cellulose base is a definite no no - yep that was one of 'em! unless of course you actually want your model to look like an ancient Chinese vase!!!!  %%

Like the sound of the 'Sword' even if it is to have one of them new fangled leccy things in :o - I have to confess, as a long time user of these noisy, smelly, castor coated, infernal combustion machines I have had the odd sneaking idea that brushless may be a more 'user friendly' even, dare one think of it, more powerful way of going about it. But do they come with essence of methanol though - ah thereby lies the nub O0

Nice hull Mart, making a lighter one sounds like a good idea - at least you will have control over the finished item. Hang on in there on the nitro bit though it will soon be back on the build. Made the wing today and have modified the bracing on one fin tonight as the original position I put this in interfered with the wing. Hopefully will finish the other tomorrow then I can post a couple of pics.

Weather forecast is favourable next week so it's back on 'you know what' for a couple of days - I'd like to get that finished now so that I can concentrate on the hydro totally and get that finished before too much longer

Regards for now - Ramon

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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2009, 10:33:58 PM »

Hey Ramon the acrylic laquer i used said it was ok to use on both acrylic and cellulose paints and it seemed to work fine it was from wilkos too  :}.This hull has lots of defects that you cant see in the pics like spider cracks here and there plus dents and an actual deep gouge where it was obviously dropped against somethinkg hard and sharp like a brick wall possibly.The seller didnt even answer my emails when i complained  <*<.Best is i said i wasnt too bothered but just wanted to tell him what id found plus lots of guys would be out for blood if they paid for something in that condition.Overall its a nice hull just way too heavy in fact i reckon it weghs 4 times one of my hulls even without a top.Will make a solid plug but im thinking of cutting off the bulbous transom and squaring it off?.
Mart
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andyn

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2009, 11:14:40 PM »

No idea what it is Martin, but it sure as hell isn't a Spearfish. Good luck with it :-))
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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2009, 01:03:11 AM »

Im not sure to be honest,does look very similar to me though.Not sure about the transom though but it has very similar strakes not sure about the ride pad?.
Mart
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andyn

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2009, 12:53:30 PM »

This is a Spearfish:

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martno1fan

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Re: 1/8 scale hydroplane 'Atlas van Lines' build
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2009, 04:45:08 PM »

Still looks very similar it has the same funny shaped transom  just mine has the extra strakes at the chines,not having seen the real thing from the bottom im not sure what the real one looks like.I do like the bow shape on mine better though seems more streamlined so you could be right its not a spearfish just a lookalike,def looks like one of the fairey style hulls though.To be honest i dont think the guy knew himself what it was when i bought it.
Mart
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