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Author Topic: Water Softeners  (Read 5152 times)

cos918

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Water Softeners
« on: July 27, 2009, 11:00:04 am »

Hi all.
I know on here there are many experts and people who have views and would love to hear them good or bad.
In my house I am about to change the pluming for a new kitchen and later a new bathroom. In Abingdon Oxfordshire it is a hard water area were lime scale is a problem. I have been doing some research in to ways a round this and found there are 4 ways. I have asked experts and they all recommend a diffrent product .If any one has used one of these or know a diffrent method I would love to hear your views

1 Water softener machine using salt.   http://www.screwfix.com/prods/80208/Plumbing/Water-Treatment/Timed-Water-Softener-10Ltr

2 Filters.  http://www.screwfix.com/prods/72063/Plumbing/Water-Treatment/2-Stage-Whole-House-Scale-Reduction-System

3 Inline inhibits http://www.screwfix.com/prods/60422/Plumbing/Water-Treatment/Salamander-Sesi-Electrolytic-Scale-Inhibitor

4 Digital Scale reducer.  http://www.screwfix.com/prods/13487/Plumbing/Water-Treatment/Electronic-Scale-Inhibitor.

I have only screw fix as it was easy to cut/past links on here.

John
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barriew

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 11:40:55 am »

Hi John,

I'm interested in this as well as we are about to move back into a hard water area - NW Essex. When we lived there previously, we had a salt type system which certainly worked, and I was intending installing another. In another area with quite hard water, I tried one of the electronic types which I didn't think had much if any effect, although it might have had something to do with the type of hardness.

What I have found from my researches is that there are now several types of salt systems, including some which don't need any electricity, and others which measure water consumption to decide when to recharge, rather than rely on a timer. I think these are the ones I will go for, unless someone can convince me that the electronic or filter style work.

I will be interested to read any other comments that come in.

Barrie
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gondolier88

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 11:41:35 am »

Hi Cos918,

Leave the Salamander well alone- it may contribute slightly to converting the ions in scale to a positive charge- but after a while they stop working- seen it too many times to be a coincidence.

I have never used the electric or chemical filters- however i'm 100% sure that as they break down the scale and then filter the resulting particles out of the water they would be far more effective than the magnetic types.

Your best option would be to fit an unvented hot water cylinder fed through a dedicated filtration system at the stoptap to the property giving you filtered hot and cold water- there are also non-electric systems available- the Scaleout Descaler and a salt based water softening system. See links;

http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=87
http://www.eastmidlandswater.com/Details.asp?ProductID=738

Greg
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cos918

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 11:55:25 am »

HI Barrie and Greg. Thank you for your thoughts. Greg I will read in detail those links you posted.

John
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Guy Bagley

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 03:16:02 pm »

 firstly i have to say i have a slight vested interest, my father in law runs a business called aquasoft- and guess what he designs makes and retails water softeners both domestic and industrial units...

when i moved from the lake district where we had naturally soft water  i was surprised how quickly my kettle furred up when 'down south'... i then got involved and eventually married SWMBO and i found out the low down on water softener sytems....we have now had one for over 15 years...

 i also found out those systems that work well and those that have impressive claims but do very little, ( ok they do a bit but they certainly dont soften all your water )

 my honest opinion is the magnetic types are all 'hot air', they simply dont do much, they dont remove or break down large amounts of calcium/ lime from the water... then there is the unit that clamps around the pipe and then  you connect it to the house mains electricity, these are similar to the magnetic ones but your electric meter spins too !!!

in the links in the original post there is a 'whole house 2 stage filration system' - made by culligan, this is a filter, these filters need changing ever 6 months or so...they trap the waterborn particles, they dont eradicate them, just filter them ( see this as a giant brita filter ! )

then there is the water powered softeners that use salt, - salt is the medium which is used in regeneration of the softening medium...these are ok, these can work if the water pressure in the area is ok, - they are very similar to the systems described below apart from they use the water pressure alone to move the moving parts...

then there are the water softeners which are electrically powered which soften your water through ion exchange resin, the hard water and its  impurities are attracted to the ion exchange resin they pass through, once the resin is saturated with calcium then the water softener needs to 'regenerate'....

this is done by the softener making brine - this is mains water with salt in it, this brine is then pumped into the ion exchange resin, the salt in the brine  breaks down the calcium and the impurities from the resin, - the resin is then backwashed and cleaned and all the nasties  in solution are pumped down the drain,  the water softener is  now regenrated and the resin is ready to go again....

the big question is do you want a fully automatic water softener ( usually more expensive) or a timed  softener,(the automatic one is  screwfix item no 45007)  the fully automatic version is exactly that, the water softener is plumbed in and there is an internal counter that knows when the flow through the unit has caused the resin to reach saturation... it will then also automatically start the regeneration process so you maintain soft water supply....if you dont use any water as your away the unit stays idle, if you use lots more water then the unit regenerates as required...
 the usually cheaper version is the 'metered/ timed' version ( screwfix item no 80208)  which relies on a manual setting,  this is manually set to regenerate at a pre determined time set on a dial, this means that if you have visitors  and use alot more water you may exceed the softeners capability,  or if you are away on holiday and use no water in a week the automatic dial will regenerate the unit even if its not needed....its just a time setting ... its manual and basic but if your water consumption is pretty steady this unit may be ideal.... the timer is usually set to regenerate in the middle of the night when water consumption is low.

 

there are several fundamentals to understand prior to having any kind of water filter/ softener installed

the first is simply why you are having it fitted...how much water do you use and does your water consumption fluctuate massively ?

artificially softened water is ideal to protect your washing machine, your boiler, your steam iron, kettle, bathroom fittings/ plumbing and all that stuff from build up of scale...
its not recommended for  powerdered baby milk, plants in the garden and some dehydrated food stuffs, - by law you must have at least one remaining hard water tap in the house,

consider how much water you use... the units in screwfix ( used as an example) are relatively small units in terms of capacity,  the litre quanitities quoted are the resin tube capacity, the bigger the resin tube the bigger the capcity to deliver the soft warer required....

a small unit may be fine it may just have to  work flat out and regenerate more often to keep up with the demand for soft water....

we were advised to use a 12 or 14 litre unit for a family of 4 using in an average sized house using a fair amount of water...

 our unit is fully automatic and it regenerates about every 10 days , during each regeneration it uses approx 7lbs of salt

take into account the cost and amount of salt you will use, this is usually alot less than ceramic cartridge filters often sold as scale reduction systems sold by the DIY stores,  these filters need changing  twice a year, and if they saturate prior to replacement you get little protection

as for further advice beofre comitting yourself look for a member of the british water association or a member of the  quality water group- ask advice and definately consider all the options but if you want to remove rather than filter  the calcium and lime then a softener not a filter is the best bet....

as for which softener -then there are alot of units out there that all do the same job-

 look for a qualtiy valve head, (autotrol are good ) - look at which unit fits if its going into a kitchen cabinet- there are compact units out there-

look at the salt type they use , some use solid blocks of salt that fit into a casette, these are compact and tidy but expensive to buy blocks of salt compared to tablet salt or granular.

any questions, just ask....
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Roger in France

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 04:35:46 pm »

I think you may find that a successful criminal prosecution was conducted against one company in connection with false claims for the magnet system! You should read the new claims, very carefully.

I would be very interested to know chapter and vese for the requirement to have at least one "hard water" tap?

Roger in France
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gondolier88

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 05:13:19 pm »

Hi guy,

Looking forward to hearing the reg.s on the 'hard water tap'...?

I've never heard that law before- what is it part of, water reg.s?

Greg
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barriew

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 05:37:55 pm »

I think it all to do with minimizing your salt intake - but I wasn't aware that is was a requirement. One of the manufacturers I found in my research claimed that it wasn't necessary as the additional salt added to the diet using softened water was not significant.

Barrie
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 06:47:51 pm »

Quote
by law you must have at least one remaining hard water tap in the house,

I suppose that puts a completely new meaning on the term "Scale Modeller".  :o
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rob

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 09:19:29 pm »

As a time served Plumber, I have always thought the only way to go was with a proper Water Softener and bags of salt.

As to the "hard water tap" Ive always fitted one ( or not fitted if you get my drift) and seem to remember it was a " better for diabetics" thing. In most places i fit a water softener ( aquasoft being a good one) i also seem to fit a filtered tap for drinking water, kettle filling etc..... my dog would never drink the "softened" but always chose the "filtered"
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andygh

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 10:50:49 pm »

I had to replace our electric shower 3 times in 4 years due to scale build up, I got a digital jobbie that wraps around the pipe and the present shower has lasted 3 years so far. Coincidence? Possibly  but I'm not taking it off {:-{
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cos918

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 11:51:52 pm »

Thank you all for your input. Guy thank you for that detailed post there a lot to go on and you have helped a lot. I think I am going to look in to a machine that uses salt to soften the water. I think I will look at one of those automatic ones rather that a time clock one. Looking at the site Greg post there are several units there but they range a lot in price. Is a more expensive machine going to do a better job than a less expensive one?

John
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Wasyl

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2009, 12:05:30 am »

So,you all want Soft Water,well Emigrate to Scotland,our water is the softest in the UK,mind you,if you all did emigrate,we,d probably have to move somewhere else, {-) {-) %% %% {-)

Wullie
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Guy Bagley

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 09:32:14 am »

Hi guy,

Looking forward to hearing the reg.s on the 'hard water tap'...?

I've never heard that law before- what is it part of, water reg.s?

Greg

i will ask my father in law tonight- he's the one who stold me plus he has been in the industry for years....maybe its to comply with the regulatory bodies like the quality water group and the british water lot... he also had to get a firm in to drill a whole in our granite work tops to fit our touch flo hard water tap... if he didnt have to he wouldn't , if memory serves me right its to do with atificially softened water and the fact it is not recommended for several applications ( like for making up powdered baby milk, and some dehydrated food stuffs, ) but am i not right in thinking its to do with the fact its artificially softened and there must be a hard warer supply that is not treated   for domestic  residences for drinking if required ?.....

anyway  to Cos918 the units do vary in price, it usually depends on the internal compnents and the quality there of...,  the valve head, the cabinet, the size of unit too, the quality of the disk seals for the various wash functions-  but they all basically do the same thing, as for the fluctuations in costs then its much like the  car industry, you can have your fiat or you can have your rolls royce, both with get you to the shops and back !

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Colin H

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2009, 04:30:10 pm »

If using a salt type water softener water authority bylaws require one drinking tap be left on the original hard water supply.

This is mainly for use by people on a medical sodium restricted diet or for making babies bottles.

It is also usual to leave the garden tap on hard water but as far as I know there is no bylaw to enforce this.

As to our friends north of the boarder yes they have very naturally soft water what no bodies told them is this can in some cases cause an increase in cardiovascular disease.

Colin H.
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Guy Bagley

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Re: Water Softeners
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2009, 01:56:49 pm »

cheers colin, , i heard something similar !
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