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Author Topic: RAF Roundels  (Read 6714 times)

2772e

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RAF Roundels
« on: November 06, 2006, 08:14:47 pm »


Another one of those really dumb questions.

What is the difference, and why do some of my RAF roundels have a yellow edge? (Boats and planes?)

The one on the roof has not but the one on the hull has?

Is any one right or wrong or are they mix and match.

Thanks

Simon

??? ??? ??? ;D :-\[/color]
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DickyD

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2006, 09:53:39 pm »

The roundel with the yellow edge goes on the hull

As with aircraft the one with the outer yellow circle went on the side of the fuselage [vertical surfaces] and the one without went on the wings.[horizontal surfaces]

Richard 8).
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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2006, 09:58:29 pm »



Hi Simon

Roundel  .....a small disk  .....decorative medallion  ......circular identifying mark painted on military aircraft  ...ie the red white and blue of the RAF.

I don't if they can be mixed, perhaps it's like adding a bar to a military medal. Maybe someone know the explaination

Cheers....Ken
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Jonty

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2006, 10:42:46 pm »

This is a complex subject. Basically, however, during most of WW2 the roundels were red and blue on upper wing surfaces, red/white/blue below (if used at all), and with the yellow surround on the fuselage sides. The proportions changed to the narrow white and yellow in 1941 or 42. RAF launches presumably changed at the same time. The proportions of the bands were different from WW1 cockades (as they were originally called) and changed again in 1947. There were many other variations.

Small craft of both the RN and USN used red/white/blue roundels on the fore deck during WW1. The latter also used triangular and square red/white/blue markings. The USAAC had its own blue/red/white cockade before adopting the white star on a blue roundel.
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Malc Reade

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2006, 11:35:01 pm »


To add to Jonty's informative post, one often sees models of RAF Crash Tenders with yellow surrounded roundels on the bow - these are incorrect - These boats wore the standard red white and blue RAF roundels.

Regards, Malc

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perkasa

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2006, 08:27:52 pm »

Simon,

As you know I have contacted the Marine craft Club and will let you know the result by e-mail. This way you will get the correct answer to the  question you asked.

Pete
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Malc Reade

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2006, 10:16:09 pm »

We have already researched this with the RAF Museum at Hendon and produce, in conjunction with BECC, decal sets for the RAF Crash Tenders in all kit scales that are currently manufactured in the UK.

The word FIRE on the original boats was painted with a 7 inch brush - we've gone into that level of detail.

Regards, Malcolm Reade




A post by another containing two photographs has been deleted from below this one...

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Malc Reade

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2006, 11:33:26 pm »

Neither of the above photographs depict RAF Crash Tenders, one is a RTTL (Target towing launch) and the other is an Air Sea Rescue launch - It is commonly believed that there were only two RAF Crash Tenders, numbered 93 and 94, but there is actually a third which still survives out in the far east, Singapore I think? which is painted in tropical colours ie black lettering on a white hull.

Regards, Malcolm

http://www.readebusiness.com/page21.html (Scroll down the page)



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2772e

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2006, 07:39:33 am »

Just to claarify, my models are of a series 2 RTTL. The latest 1/12 is based on RAF 2757 as at Hendon. There is no roundel on the hull at Hendon.

I seem to have opened a right can of worms here.

Should the roundel on the hull have a yellow edge. I know the one on the roof does not.

Thanks Guys
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DickyD

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2006, 08:07:24 am »

Yours in your photo is 2757.
The one in mine is 2758 and they are both the same craft.
Check out roundels ::)

Richard
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cbr900

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2006, 08:10:11 am »

Yes Richard it is indeed a roundel,  but how to determine what colour it is,  have a look at the photo it is black and white, DOH...


Roy
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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2006, 08:23:43 am »

Simple. Just count the rings. If yellow outer ring then there would be four rings showing . :P ???
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Malc Reade

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2006, 09:21:54 am »


2772e

I must apologise if I have introduced a red herring here?

My comments were made about RAF Crash Tenders, not realising that your model was an RTTL.

We are busy digging out some general history on yellow bordered roundels (of which there were many variations) and I will post this information as and when it comes to light.

For those with RAF Crash Tenders (Nos 93 & 94) yellow bordered roundels of ANY flavour on these boats are definitely incorrect.

Regards, Malcolm



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2772e

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2006, 04:47:36 pm »

Richard,

Yes the same version, however your picture denotes the boat in war trim (grey roof) and without the extended height engine room cover (triple engines, V8) when converted to twin V12's they had a higher engine room cover fitted. This picture must have been very early. I am going for post war and the roof colour was changed to white, to denote peace time.

Not sure if the roundels changed from war to peace?

Malc,

Info following your investigations would be helpfull as i currentl have the yellow edged ones fitted.

Regards

Simon
???
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Malc Reade

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2006, 06:34:48 pm »



Hi Simon

I have consulted our Oracle at BECC who is a mine of accumulated information on this subject - when I get a reply I will post.  May take a day or two as Leamington Spa calls..

Regards, Malc



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2772e

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2006, 07:07:41 pm »

Just had a look at the yard numbers of 2757 and 2758. ;D

2757 delivered for service 22/01/1958 with two Rolls Royce V12 Griffen engines.
2757 delivered for service 30/07/1957 with two rolls Royce V12 Griffen engines.

Also checked some old Black and White photos of 2757, in 1958 she did not have the higher engine room cover and in 1975 on her last trip to Hendon she did.

I guess its back to the drarring board on the engine conversions and higher hatch covers. ???

Perhaps someone has the answer to when and why the engine room covers were raised on this one?

 ???
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Jonty

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2006, 08:40:09 pm »

Just shows how tricky this is, the photo of 2758 shows it wearing post 1947 porportioned roundels. Yet Perkasa's logo (I can't bring myself to call it an avatar) of the RAF ensign shows it with the 20s/30s small red centre, as it still is.

Jonty
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modelmaker

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2007, 10:19:42 am »

Raf marine craft used for Air Sea Rescue work during WW2 carried a yellow outer ring on the hull roundel.  After the war this was discontinued.  Regarding the engine room deckheads on Post war Vosper RTTLs, Mk.1., Mk.1a.,MK1b and MK2 the flat type were originally for home water use and the raised type for overseas service, but during their service life all engine room deckheads were raised hence the confusion.  Anything you wish to know with regards to all types of RAF Marine Craft - just ask.

Regards,
Donald Smith
RAF MARINE CRAFT HISTORIAN
rafwebfoot@aol.com               
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Dan.Lord

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2007, 10:34:31 pm »

I found a couple of pics that might e of help.
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Admhawk

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2007, 11:24:52 pm »

From "RCN Aircraft Finish and Markings 1944-1968" (paraphrased)

The RAF/FAA roundel in the 30's became known as the Type A roundel with bright red, white and blue rings, proportioned 1:3:5 and worn on top and bottom of both wings and fuselage. In 1941 the under wing markings were removed.

Dull colours came into play in 1939 as camouflage needed the markings to be harder to see, but the reduced visibility made it harder to identify freindly aircraft.

The Type A1 roundel corrected this by adding a thick yellow ring to the outside, proportioned 1:3:5:7. This happened about May 1940, but conflicted with the intent of camouflage, making aircraft too easy to see.

The Type B roundel (or night roundel, originially known as National Marking I) used the dull red and blue colours in proportions of 2:5.
This version proved to be too effective on the fuselage, so another changed was needed.

The white was reintroduced in a reduced size. The Type C roundel (National marking II) was red, white and blue in proportions 3:4:8 and used only on the fuselage sides and under the wings, while the Type B was used on top. However, it still wasn't visible enough so a thin yellow outer ring was added to aid in the recognition of friendly aircraft.

It is known as the Type C1 (National marking III) with proportions of 3:4:8:9 and was used on the fuselage only starting around mid 1942.

The main sizes of roundels were 18, 36 and 54 inch.

Thus the 'standard' remained until post war when a return to prewar markings was desired, but with a difference. Instead of going back to the Type A, the Type D was created with gloss Red, White and blue in proportions of 1:2:3 of the radius, giving a larger red center.

In Canada the Red center was replaced with the Red Maple leaf during the post war years. The attached photo is of a RCAF Crash boat in the late 40's or early 50's. The yellow ring is used on the dark hull, to aid in making the roundel visible and I suspect would have been used at the discretion of the CO.

Cheers!!
Darren


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modelmaker

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2007, 08:43:37 am »

Hi folks
if anyone wants the correct size and spacing etc., for RAF marine Craft hull markings contact me by e-mail.

Donald Smith
RAF MARINE CRAFT HISTORIAN
rafwebfoot@aol.com
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2772e

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2007, 07:56:19 pm »


So chaps,

Do we have a definitive answer as to whether my RTTL should or should not have the yellow outer ring on the hull.

Thanks

Simon
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modelmaker

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Re: RAF Roundels
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2007, 06:45:08 am »

The definitive answer is NO.  Post war RAF Marine Craft did NOT carry a yellow outer ring on their roundels. Not on the hull, nor on the superstructure tops. Neither did they carry yellow numerals - only white. Hope this clarifies everything.

REgards
Donald Smith
RAF MARINE CRAFT HISTORIAN
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