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Author Topic: NATIONAL SERVICE  (Read 18065 times)

sinjon

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2010, 05:06:05 pm »

Bit sneaky.
 I was working in the aircraft industry,  was due to be in the last batch for call up. So transferred to another aircraft company doing  'work of national importance ' (building Gannets) so missed it all, can't say that I was disappointed.  Sorry chaps.

Colin
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Jonty

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2010, 09:39:48 pm »

  Missed National Service by a couple of years. But a privileged upbringing meant that I went to a public school with a CCF, formerly OTC. Never mind 18, who got to fire Lee-Enfields, Brens, Sterlings and FNs at 16? And fly in Chipmunks, Provosts and even a Valetta? Or go for arduous training with the Chasseurs Alpins? And the Scouts, as they were then, had been a good intro to that sort of thing.

  Why can't something like that be organised for everyone? Perhaps the sticking point is that our parents were required to sign a blood chit to the effect that we did as we were told, and that if anything happened to us it was nothing to do with the school, the masters, or anyone else. Risk assessment - wassat?
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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2010, 09:51:08 pm »

Quote
better not join in  topic.i was a regular RAF 22 yrs

Rockape?

Quote
As for the argument that the Regs don't have time to train Nashos, garbarge.
Nashos, reservists etc are equally as good because they all come from the same place initially.  OK
That is they were all civilians.
It is the training that counts.

There is no argument it's just a fact, conscripts can never reach up to  the level of proper volunteers  <*<
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Colin Bishop

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #28 on: April 18, 2010, 10:00:30 pm »

Quote
There is no argument it's just a fact, conscripts can never reach up to the level of proper volunteers 

Well that statement flies in the face of history in both world wars - Army, Navy and Air Force!
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2010, 10:34:13 pm »

Well that statement flies in the face of history in both world wars - Army, Navy and Air Force!

Absolutely the case here.  :-))
For example,Look at WWI, WWII and Vietnam.
Read the histories and it is clearly acknowledged.  :-))
Have seen,Nasho/reservists out shoot, outperform Regs.
Bottom line with good training they all come out the same.
Here endeth the lesson.  :kiss:   :kiss:
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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2010, 10:44:53 pm »

Quote
Well that statement flies in the face of history in both world wars - Army, Navy and Air Force!

Really, compared with what, Falklands, Afghanistan?
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Jimmy James

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2010, 11:57:52 pm »

Sorry Gang, Regular RN from an RN and Sea going family going back over 300 years...
As For National Service I think a selective service scheme could be a good thing IF it was set up and run correctly,---- not just to produce Cannon fodder--- A lot of young people these days can't get jobs because they have the wrong kind of Education, Training or Back ground or they want to sit in front of a computer in a nice office and would never consider picking up a spanner... A year or two training in a support roll might encourage some of these people to enlist in the forces or at least give them a start in a Trade in civil life when their time is up... But the key is selective service, People who have been unable to find employment could be given the opportunity to join ... there is a vast untapped reservoir of knowledge and undeveloped skills going to waist out there
Freebooter
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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2010, 12:12:11 am »

I very much agree, also it'd be a good way of gaining some of the skilled labour we need without importing it
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2010, 01:54:20 am »


It is obvious that all the "Regs" are missing the point and are burying their heads in the sand.  O0
Namely all "Regs" Afghanistan etc came from the same civilian pool.  :-))
So how did they become "Regs" obviously they were trained.  :-)) %)
So are you "Regs" now saying you are incompetent  :} and cannot successfully train from the same civilian pool.  :((
If the recruits don't turn out OK it is because of the training not the individual.  {:-{ {:-{
C'mon guys give us a break.  >>:-(  <*<
Because we, in OZ are lacking "Regs" we are using Reservist's to make up the shortfall, Yep in Afghanistan.  :-)) :D :}
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BrianCartwright

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2010, 09:37:12 am »

I was called up on the next to last day before it finished.
I went to Bridgnorth for 6 weeks square bashing and then on to Melksham where I spent fifteen weeks training as an aircraft electrician.
Most of our flight were ex apprentices in one form or another and were considered inteligent enough to go on for further training.
I eventually rose in rank to the dizzy heights of senior aircraftsman.The only thing preventing my further promotion was the fact I had to sign on for a minimum of three years.
The general view of NS was,Treat them with respect as most of them are concientious and reliable.The thought of putting yobos into national service is an insult to all the services.

Brian ex RAF
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tigertiger

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2010, 10:51:51 am »



If the recruits don't turn out OK it is because of the training not the individual.  {:-{ {:-{


Don't be too quick to assume what we regulars are thinking.
I think all the regulars would agree with you on the points you are making about the raw materials (kids) and training.

The issue is that many part timers in the UK don't get the training, or the time at the sharp end to hone these skills.

The Territorial army in the UK for the most part lack essential training. This is a fault of government policy and MOD budgets.
I once had to (on exercise) serve under a TA Sargeant who had 10 years experience of odd weekends and a two week camp every year (total less than 2 years experience at the job and long periods of non service). Nightmare. He was telling me how to do a trade that was my full time job. He was also supposed to be superior at military skills. This is where the friction between regulars and part timers comes from.

In the past, many UK national servicemen got only 6 weeks training before being sent to the sharp end. OK for those in the rear echelon perhaps, but not for infantry troops.
The old hands spent a lot of energy keeping the newbies alive, while they learned on the job.

There are exceptions to the lack of training issue. Like the part time US troops who have done full time tours of duty in Iraq. They deserve respect.

The fact that most of the British army at the beginning of WW2 was a conscript/volunteer army is also not forgotten. Most of the regular army (The Expeditionary Force) had been smashed before Dunkirk.

Also, as regulars in cold war Europe, we were well aware of the fact that our role was to slow down the advance of the Red Forces, until the conscript army could be mobilised. A matter of days or at best a few weeks.
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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2010, 01:42:31 pm »

Somebody forced to do something will never be as good as somebody who asks to do it (and has better training). That they both started out as civillians is irrelevant
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steamboatmodel

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2010, 03:04:00 pm »

I don't know the numbers but there are Canadian Reservist/Melita serving in Afghanistan, From what I have been told the Part-Timers here are now getting much better training and integration with the Regs then they used to.
I was all set to join up when I was in High School, had planned on doing SAR, then the last semester I blew my knee out. As both my family doctor and the specialist I had seen were the military doctors for the area I couldn't get in.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Patternmaker

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2010, 07:32:08 pm »

This topic has now developed into Regulars versus National Servicemen.
 
This is my experience of the regulars serving in Suez from 1953 to 1956 including operation Musketeer, 90% of us on active service where
National service, this also applied to Korea  Most of the regulars at that time were posted to Germany considered to be a home posting.

We had regular Officers straight from Sandhurst with no combat experience giving orders, on one occasion when Egyptian Commanders penetrated our garrison at Tel-al-kabir and were cornered in our vehicle battery store where thousands of 24v Batteries where being stored and charged I was ordered by a 2nd Lieutenant to take my platoon in and flush them out with grenades, an order which I refused to carry out giving the obvious reasons of  Hydrogen Gas waited for them to emerge and rapidly dealt with the situation.
.
He put me on a charge, a court marshal offence for disobeying orders. The officer and I where summoned before the CO who called the officer a
F****** Idiot and was promptly sent back to the UK.

Basically whether Regulars or National Service its all down to training and
experience.

Some of 3 Para killed in the Falklands where only 18

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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2010, 07:36:16 pm »


Quote
Some of 3 Para killed in the Falklands where only 18

Yes, one of them was a friend of mine though he was 19
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2010, 10:23:04 pm »

It may not be widely known,  :-)) but the permanents  O0 AKA regs, since federation 1901, were not allowed to serve outside Australia  :embarrassed: until the law was changed well after WWII. >:-o  Oz had conscription for its wars who were the original ANZAC's  :kiss:

The battle honours, traditions, etc were not earned by the Regs.

Today as is the case elsewhere the Regs  {:-{ are still putting their heads in the sand  O0 and making unfounded and unproven claims  {:-{ that it is only they who are fit and capable to defend  :(( Basically they have shot themselves in the foot  :embarrassed: because of this attitude  <:( they are finding it more than difficult to retain members  <*<  let alone increase recruiting.
Many more examples as indicated by Patternmaker abound.

"This topic has now developed into Regulars versus National Servicemen"
Only became so when the Regs raised the old chestnut of their superiority over National servicemen, couldn't let that slide.
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Patternmaker

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2010, 10:28:14 pm »

Well said, RaaArtyGunner
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2010, 09:36:19 am »

Finland still has compulsory National Service, most of the kids look forward to it
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BrianCartwright

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2010, 04:36:37 pm »

Breaking away from this rather sensative subject I would like to tell you about lack of proper training in civvy street.
In the seventies I had a small plumbing and heating business employing on average five plumbers.
They were a mixed bag but all good lads.I also took on a government trainee from a 6 months course in plumbing.
He was a quiet unassuming guy but had to be watched like a hawk.After about six months he was getting nowhere and was becomming a liability so we had to part company.
Nowadays you can become a plumber after a six week intensive course.

GOD HELP THE BUILDING TRADE :-))

Thankfully retired
Brian
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Peterm

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2010, 06:16:30 pm »

Brian, Its not always that bad.   My grandson, now 21 years of age, did a full 5 years apprenticeship including day release at Tech college.   He has just finished a complete re-plumb of his Mum`s house and his work is brilliant.   Pete
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BrianCartwright

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2010, 06:29:28 pm »

Pete I know it's not all bad but aprenticeships are few and far between.Congratulations to your grandson.It's unusual to find someone willing to stick it out for twelve months let alone five years
He has entered a fine carear and I hope he enjoys it as much I did.I still like the smell of new construction.Had it not been bad health that stopped me at 69 I would still be merrily plumbing along now :-))

Kind regards and good luck for the future

Brian
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BoatyBoy

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2010, 09:37:54 pm »

Quote
Only became so when the Regs raised the old chestnut of their superiority over National servicemen, couldn't let that slide.

Not a chestnut tho is it?  ;D
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2010, 10:34:40 pm »

Breaking away from this rather sensative subject I would like to tell you about lack of proper training in civvy street.
In the seventies I had a small plumbing and heating business employing on average five plumbers.
They were a mixed bag but all good lads.I also took on a government trainee from a 6 months course in plumbing.
He was a quiet unassuming guy but had to be watched like a hawk.After about six months he was getting nowhere and was becomming a liability so we had to part company.
Nowadays you can become a plumber after a six week intensive course.

GOD HELP THE BUILDING TRADE :-))

Thankfully retired
Brian
Unfortunately similar changes have occurred in OZ.  :((  So long as all training is completed and that can be at the pace of the individual, ie 12 months or longer, they become qualifiesd tradesmen.
It is called "Block training ", carried out by training providers  <:(
Regrettably it produces eg, Carpenters who cannot cut out roofs let alone construct the roof, unless manufactured roof trusses are available.
There is no such thing an apprenticeship any more.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2010, 10:36:44 pm »

Not a chestnut tho is it?  ;D
Try and tell that to the Regs,  O0 good luck.  :-X
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BillG

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Re: NATIONAL SERVICE
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2010, 11:31:41 pm »

It may not be widely known,  :-)) but the permanents  O0 AKA regs, since federation 1901, were not allowed to serve outside Australia  :embarrassed: until the law was changed well after WWII. >:-o  Oz had conscription for its wars who were the original ANZAC's  :kiss:

The battle honours, traditions, etc were not earned by the Regs.

Today as is the case elsewhere the Regs  {:-{ are still putting their heads in the sand  O0 and making unfounded and unproven claims  {:-{ that it is only they who are fit and capable to defend  :(( Basically they have shot themselves in the foot  :embarrassed: because of this attitude  <:( they are finding it more than difficult to retain members  <*<  let alone increase recruiting.
Many more examples as indicated by Patternmaker abound.

"This topic has now developed into Regulars versus National Servicemen"
Only became so when the Regs raised the old chestnut of their superiority over National servicemen, couldn't let that slide.


G'day

Your first sentence is not correct.

Australia's CMF was not allowed to serve out Australia or its Territories however, this as changed during to WW2 to allow our CMF to fight in the Pacfic.

There are other mistakes in your arugement.

Cheers
Bill
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