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Author Topic: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'  (Read 23138 times)

gondolier88

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'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« on: August 20, 2009, 06:26:37 pm »

Hi all,

Wondering what interest is around for this engine fully buillt to customer's spec (colour, fittings, accesories etc)?

Thinking around £440 for basic engine painted to prefered coulour, rising with add-ons (need to do pricing but roughly £35 dispalcement lubricator with valve drain off, £40 for exhaust silencer/oil seperator, £35 for engine-mounted micro-servo throttle cradle)

Let me know what you think.

Greg
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Bee

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 08:09:54 pm »

If you look below at the Hemmens thread people were suggesting 350 for one of them. Cost of production doesn't always equate to perceived value.
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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 10:33:09 pm »

Hi Bee,

That thread is discussing a completely different engine, a used one at that, not to your own spec', and also as John Hemmens said they can fetch anywhere between £350-£1500!

Hi all,

Wondering what interest is around for this engine fully buillt to customer's spec (colour, fittings, accesories etc)?

Thinking around £440 for basic engine painted to prefered coulour, rising with add-ons (need to do pricing but roughly £35 dispalcement lubricator with valve drain off, £40 for exhaust silencer/oil seperator, £35 for engine-mounted micro-servo throttle cradle)

Let me know what you think.

I hope I didn't sound too short then, just want to clear that up,it's just not really a fair comparison, and this isn't percieved value- other manufacturers are offering less for only £30-40 less.

Heres a pic of the engine to remind you what i'm talking about.

Greg
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 11:18:39 pm »

I agree you have to compare apples with apples but the comment you refer to regarding engine values of £350.00 to £1500.00 was specifically referring to a Caton 'V' four valved engine, which is an entirely different beast.  My own estimate for a second hand 'V' four in the current market was, and remains, about £350.00.

You are referring to an inline twin oscillator which in either an in line or 'V' configuration go for about the same price.  If you want to refer to something similar then starting with a Hemmens 'V' twin complete with a lubricator you are looking at £225.00.  It is £275.00 if fitted with a water pump.

From what I can see from your picture yours has the advantage of screw fastened cylinder covers but I can't see much more that it has over the Hemmens.  A fairer comparrison would be the Stuart Puffin engine, which is, of course, the old Cheddar Puffin and almost identical to your Clyde.  The current catalogue price is £390.00, ex VAT, which is a significant increase over what  the Cheddar price used to be and Stuart are generally regarded as an expensive engine.

Another usefull comparrison is a twin oscillator I have which is also very similar to the Puffin.  It was made by an extreemly competent model engineer in the form of Bogstandard, who is a member here, and the going rate for one of the batch of six he made at the time was £200.00, including a lubricator.

Using these engines as a comparrison I think £440.00 for a model engine similar to a Puffin is way too expensive and I would be very surprised if you were able to generate any demand at that price.

   
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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 11:41:37 pm »

Okay, drawing board here I come... ok2

Greg
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Bee

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009, 12:06:13 am »

I guess where you were coming from was
http://www.myhobbystore.com/7263/Miniature-Steam-Clyde-Assembly-Kit.html
and suggesting assembly and painting would take it above their built price of
http://www.myhobbystore.com/7262/Miniature-Steam-Clyde-Fully-Assembled.html
or that of Cornwall http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/ms5009.html
Maybe you could find a buyer if they can, but some things I would definately do is remove the moulding flash, modify the covers for six hex bolts, and some kind of covered oil cups.
Out of interest, any other suggetions to give it a bit more 'class'?
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Proteus

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2009, 12:12:47 am »

If I was offerd a comecial Puffin or one made by a man in a shed the one made by the man in the shed would have to have something very special to stop me buying the comercial engine as you  have to think long term for spares, and be a lot cheaper, as it would be a gamble.
over the last 12 months I have picked up a Puffin. compleatewith a  brand  type two boiler for £340 on ebay

Proteus
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bogstandard

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2009, 06:09:50 am »

Proteus

Rather a bad accusation there.

Quote
If I was offerd a comecial Puffin or one made by a man in a shed the one made by the man in the shed would have to have something very special to stop me buying the comercial engine as you  have to think long term for spares, and be a lot cheaper, as it would be a gamble.

I have been making custom model steam engines for boats for more years than I care to remember, and have them installed in model boats in many different countries, and never had a single complaint about quality or workmanship. In fact, last year, one of my long stroke oscillators was used as a direct replacement for a Gemini engine, where it outperformed it in every respect, steam consumption, power and ease of use.

I cannot say that everyone takes as much care as I do, but every engine I make is built to exacting tolerances and finish, with only the correct materials used for long life. The output shaft is bearing supported, not found on a lot of engines, and without it, results in early bearing failure on the front end, especially if they have an unsupported flywheel. Stainless steel for all rods and shafts, aluminium bronze for big ends, all stainless fasteners, top quality stainless steel ball races (at least 4 in every engine) all into a very compact and easy to control unit. Also supplied are spare rings, races and even stuffing gland materials, oh, and nearly forgot, spares of screws and fixings that are used on the engine, just in case you lose one on a Sunday whilst sailing.  Also supplied is an installation and running guide to get the best out of the engine. Tell me if you get that sort of service from commercial makers.

My engines are not made down to a price, but well designed, powerful and easy to operate, and still only half the price of a commercial unit, as has been shown. That is of course dependent of the cost of raw materials, this year, they have risen dramatically, and at such a low price, the extra costs cannot be absorbed, so the price has to rise or fall accordingly.
I am not in direct competition with the main suppliers, and only produce in very limited quantity, not for massive profits, just to keep my workshop ticking over in consumables and tooling, and the love of making them.
Normally, you won't see them for sale, as they are usually sold before they are finished being made. During the build, I can also modify my engines to customers requirements, two of my last batch were made into horizontal units for paddle boats, how many of the commercial producers can do that?

So please, don't go tarring everyone with the same brush. I consider my engines far superior to the 'Puffins' of this world. They do the job efficiently, usually with a lot more power, and as I have said, I have never had a single complaint or fault reported.

Horizontal and vertical version of the same engine. The horizontal one cannot be stopped with fingers on just 5 PSI. Both designed to work on less than 30 PSI, preferably 25 PSI.



Mine with a Puffin. Mine has nearly double the stroke length, but not double the height. Slower revving, more power, doesn't wear out as quickly. It will easily power a 50" steam launch.



My own designed long stroke piston valve engine (plain bearings on this one). But could easily be converted to stainless needle roller.



Mine against a Hemmens V twin (Bunkerbarges').



This is a standard installation in a Krick Victoria with a Maccsteam boiler. A very powerful full plant for less than 600 squid.




Do you still think it's a gamble?

I don't, and I am positive all my previous customers don't either.

Just to answer a bit of Gregs initial question, if making them youself, inline luber with built in drain, about 25 squid, a nicely polished, manually emptied oil trap, about 25 to 30 squid, depending how large it is.


Bogs


BTW, next batch, hopefully sometime early next year, dependent on health and workload.
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derekwarner

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 07:49:23 am »

May sound like coals to Newcastle....... %) ;)...but an e-mailed thumb sketch to Crewe Engineering [Bogs+Vinnie+Bandit] & the resultant model steam accessory parts are winging their way Australia

The result is proven time & time again
 
Quality =  :-))
Dimensional accuracy =  :-))
Cost comparison to Australian produced items + air parcel post consideration =  :-))
Delivery status.........I never say urgent... = :-))
Pleasant person to deal with  =  :-)) + he has a great dry & droll sence of humor  {-) %%

What more can I say......... thanks Bogs..........:-) :-) :-)...Derek
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Derek Warner

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Proteus

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 07:57:12 am »

Proteus

Rather a bad accusation there.

Do you still think it's a gamble?

I don't, and I am positive all my previous customers don't either.

Just to answer a bit of Gregs initial question, if making them youself, inline luber with built in drain, about 25 squid, a nicely polished, manually emptied oil trap, about 25 to 30 squid, depending how large it is.


Bogs


BTW, next batch, hopefully sometime early next year, dependent on health and workload.


So you answerd it yourself, Yours are special and worth buying, they are something different to the norm, they are not a lookalike copy of a existing commercial engine , so yes anyone would jump at them .

Proteus
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Bee

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2009, 10:37:21 am »

Some lovely engines there - the piston valve one looks gold plated in that shot. I think the dividing line is not commercial/amateur but 'reputation' which can only be built up over time. Not to put you off Gondalier, give it a go, after all even Flintoff started with tennis balls (for people reading this in the future it's day 2 of the final Test)
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ROSYTH

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2009, 11:17:15 am »

I am doing a small launch for a friend at the moment who is as the norm on a tight budget.
He wants to be on the water late summer early autumn which will be ok I guess so I needed to have a really good scout about for a
Small steam plant that would match his massive budget for plant only of 150 quid {-) {-) {-).

Oh dear I hear you all say, well I thought that until I started looking at certain auction sites across the country. As we all know there are now increasing auctions
dates for Scale Models and if you know where to look you can with some patience come across a few items. I regularly leave email bids with these auction houses and
if successful which isn't very often due to keen competition in this ever growing market, I am more than happy when the items land.

So back to budget boat, I managed to bid on and buy for 170 quid excluding premium( all told 199) a Brand New Cheddar Models Complete Steam Plant with a new Gas Tank
and everything else in its original packaging with all instructions. It was the Cheddar Kompact Steam Plant but Brand New. It is granted approx 50 quid over his budget but he is
very happy with it because it is complete and does not require any additional items to be bought which will add more cost.
I doubt very much he would have come across anything like it on 'e£$y' for that kind of money or even made up a steam plant of individual items for that money so once fitted and
running in his launch he will be quite happy I reckon.

When making a purchase it does pay to have a really good look at what is on the market commercially and if that is too expensive for your pocket then look around at Auctions or
make a call to advertise yourself on forums like ours or amongst other like minded enthusiasts.

Auction was at Lacy Scott Knight........Model Auction last friday.........lot 128.  for those interested have a look at what the other items fetched as I missed out on a few items
by 5-10quid against my left bid, not to say that it may have gone higher though as there is a lot of competition these days for good small kompact plants!

Cheers
Rosyth
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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2009, 06:18:35 pm »

Okay, I went back to the drawing board, I found I couldn't do what I want without as lathe, I never wanted to use already available engines, so i'm ordering an Axminster SIEG C2 tonight- expect progress on the engine front- going to start with a D10- which I will be selling so I will keep you all posted to see if your interested and to test my techniques.

Greg
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stuart177

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2009, 05:25:24 am »

Boy are there some skeptics out there!
Sorry Proteus but your assumptions are wrong. I am responding for no other reason than to put the record straight. I resent the implication/s that we are “guilding the lilly”. We are not!

A steam engine is a steam engine and it is difficult to design one that does not look like any other. None of our products have been reverse engineered. Yes the Clyde does look like the Puffin but that is where the similarities stop. Three engineers had a go at drawing up our requirements starting 4 years ago. The last one got the design right and we have polished the design in prototype testing. The design has many superior features as a result of this testing. If you thought the Puffin was good wait till you try Clyde. This work is also spawning an extension to the range that will be announced shortly.
A similar story applies to the other products we offer.
A boiler is a boiler but I challenge anyone to get one that outperforms ours.
To Proteus: Steam sealing is important for efficient operation – hence the knurled nut packing gland.
To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension.
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Proteus

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2009, 09:56:16 am »

stuart177

 I think you have posted this in the wrong post. my remarks where made
Hear

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=19343.0
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Proteus

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2009, 10:17:11 am »

Back to this post , after reading the post on the plover and the problems had but now hopefully getting sorted I stand by what i said ,  for someone who just wants a running engine go for a recognised steam manufacturer with  a Good  track record ,, UNLESS you know the work of a specialist whose engines can be a lot better than commercial.

my comment are after seeing a few engines and plants bought of e-bay advertised as ""  built engineer" to museum standards and they are just a collection of parts found in a shed or a old night school project.

Proteu
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Circlip

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2009, 12:38:00 pm »

How many GENUINE Fleebay ads have you been reading Proteus?? EVERYTHING with a bit of patina found in a shed is "Engineer" built??, EVERY deceased persons relatives are selling their Loved ones "Antique" lathe?? How many tols and fttings are specifically for a "Myford" lathe.

  Don't forget, the scorn that was being levied on a specific single cylinder single acting slide valve engine that someone was trying to sell, by quite a few Ex spurts.

   Never heard the term "Buyer Beware" ??

  Regards Ian.
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pipercub1772

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2009, 03:22:00 pm »


following on this thread i agree with bogstandard a commercial engine must be the way forward not only have you got some comeback but hopefully a ready supply of spares,withought those your going to need some engineering knowledge and equipment although i have been building models for years its my 1st time with steam ,when i started some 18months ago it seemed relatively straight forward soon found out it wouldn't be, first were to buy a steam plant for a start ,not much available in this country acs not producing cheddar gone Stuart not yet producing the puffin,it was only when i discovered this site about 6 months ago i realized there where other possibilities some i must admit to expensive for me i resorted to Eba in eagerness to find a engine and boiler ,made a good choice with my mcsteam boiler the engine ill reserve my opinion till later at the end of the day like circlip said buyer beware .i would however love to have one of bogstandards engines and hope i could be considered for one if he gets the time to make any
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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2009, 05:05:26 pm »

Hi all,

Well as your all such a hard bunch to impress O0, I now have my lathe, awaiting tooling and will be purchasing castings for D10 in a few days, will keep you all posted.

Do you think there is enough interest in a steam engine build to warant a post 'engineering' section regarding the processes I adopt to build it- this will be a learning curve for me too, also no access to a milling machine so will be a true lathe model- I can run a steam plant no problem but I havn't built any up yet- plus I may be able to start a good reputation off- but knowing you lot I doubt it!!! :-))

Greg
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pipercub1772

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2009, 05:17:40 pm »

you bet there is  cant wait/
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bogstandard

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2009, 06:39:57 pm »

Greg,

Don't worry about a milling machine. The D10 was designed to be made on just a lathe and drilling machine, but you may have to get a few accessories for it, and make a few holding jigs.

There are books about that show you exactly how to build a specific Stuart engine just using a lathe and a drill. But if you get really stuck, you have the full facilities here if you ever need it.

With regards to showing the build on here. Everything I have shown seems to have gone down well, but they have basically been model boat orientated. So because it is boat related, I think it will be lapped up and enjoyed by the members.

What you don't want to do is turn the site into a model engineering one.

Here is a link to a chap who has partially completed one

http://www.tudedude.co.uk/workshop/Projects/D10/D10%20Main%20Page.html

Bogs
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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2009, 10:50:11 pm »

Hi Bogs,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I have seen the book advertised on ST website- I think it may be a purchase waiting to happen.

I hear what your saying about keeping the content model boat orientated- I will bear it in mind.

Great link too- his 'high tech'' honing techniques are particularly impressive- if not because of it's simplicity- not so sure about the polished cylinder though- can't see much oil sticking to that at steam temperature- good to see turning between centres too- may be a while before I attempt that, after some practice of course.

I will start the thread on your bidding then gent's, on your heads be it Bogs, Pipercub...... ;)

Greg
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MONAHAN STEAM MODELS

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2009, 11:19:52 pm »

Boy are there some skeptics out there!
Sorry Proteus but your assumptions are wrong. Um, I disagree. I am responding for no other reason than to put the record straight. I resent the implication/s that we are “guilding the lilly”. We are not! A little bit defensive there are we?

A steam engine is a steam engine and it is difficult to design one that does not look like any other. Wow, Really? Since it's so hard then I eagerly await the next familiar looking engine to roll off your assembly line. None of our products have been reverse engineered. You mean that you designed the very first steam engine in the world? Wow Congrats! Yes the Clyde does look like the Puffin but that is where the similarities stop. Three engineers had a go at drawing up our requirements starting 4 years ago. The last one got the design right and we have polished the design in prototype testing. The design has many superior features as a result of this testing. Such as? If you thought the Puffin was good wait till you try Clyde. This work is also spawning an extension to the range that will be announced shortly.
A similar story applies to the other products we offer.
A boiler is a boiler but I challenge anyone to get one that outperforms ours. I accept your challenge
To Proteus: Steam sealing is important for efficient operation – hence the knurled nut packing gland.
To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension. Try machining it?

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gondolier88

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2009, 07:11:40 am »

Welcome back Nick, long time no see, everything ok?

By the way, here here! {:-{

Greg
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bogstandard

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Re: 'Clyde' Oscillator, formerly Cheddar 'Puffin'
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2009, 11:10:35 am »

To bogstandard – yes the piston rod is brass. It would be stainless steel if we could source SS rod of the right dimension.


It is a sorry state of affairs if such a company as you have cannot source materials, or modify an engine to take materials of a slightly different dimension. I do that sort of thing daily.

So in fact making an engine made down to a price, rather than a superior quality, and using materials that will not withstand the harsh running conditions for many years, as stainless would do. In fact, one good knock on the propeller at full steam would most probably see those flimsy brass rods bent like a banana.

With regards to the stuffing glands. My original Puffin has bronze bottom cylinder covers, and with well over a thousand hours steaming over many many years, I replaced them once during that time, and that was only because I was doing a re-ring, not because I was getting excessive steam blow by. Now if that bearing is made of brass, I can see why the steam gland would be needed. It would leak like a sieve after no time, because of the wear in the bearing.

I just can't wait for someone to show me one of these in the flesh, just so that I can compare it with an original Puffin size for size. Then we will see how good your R&D department is.

Stuffing glands, crappy assembly screws and making down to a price don't constitute a complete redesign.

If you would care to send me a sample for analysis (returnable of course), I could put all the forum members at ease when I do find it is a complete redesign rather than a copy.

You are talking to people on here that have many hundreds of years personal experience running and making model steam engines between them, and I can assure you, unless you can convince me otherwise, what you are making is a made down to a price copy of the Puffin.

I would love you to prove me wrong, and I would certainly write a retraction to that effect. But as it is, your argument doesn't look too promising.

Should I expect a little package sometime in the near future?
Maybe containing a normal, off the line Clyde engine for me to measure up and assess.

If the answer is no, then I will assume the worst, and my deductions are correct.


Bogs
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