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Author Topic: LOST HOPE  (Read 5214 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2009, 08:29:47 pm »

According to "reports" McKinnon actually did quite a bit of damage to the US Department of Defense sites and left threatening messages to do more. If true then I'm not surprised that the Americans want his blood. I don't agree with the unbalanced extradition treaty we have with the US but as someone who has been working for many years in an IT related environment hackers really hack me off!

Colin
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OMK

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2009, 09:18:54 pm »

As you say, you have to use the term 'reports' very loosely. Like you, I too would hate to jump on any man's bones just because I read a 'report'. Far better to hear the full facts before hanging the dude out to dry.
Did he really cause any damage? In that case, chop off his genitals.
Is he being used as a scapegoat? In that case, chop off THEIR genitals.
Will the likes of us minions ever get to hear the full facts? The full truth?
Probably not.
The fact that he went hacking, and all the while fully aware of what he was doing, that alone was bad enough and most certainly tantamounts to wrongdoings. His defence is that he was trying to expose a cover-up, the truth. And judging from his features, facial expressions, body language and his ability to own up to his antics when he was caught implies that he's basically an honest sort. The reality is that he must have been absolutely overwhelmed at what he found. The lure of going back, time and time again, must have been too much for the man.
If any of us had the chance to sit and have a pint with him, would any of us want to ask what it was which he found so interesting? Little green men and all that malarkey. Could it actually be true?

Hackers?
Yes, there are good ones and there are bad ones. How come no-one kicks up a fuss when the powers-that-be hack into our own sytems?... or even the spotty kid down at PC World, snopping all your private files when you take it for repair?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2009, 11:04:53 pm »

Quote
If any of us had the chance to sit and have a pint with him

He didn't strike me as being the sort of person you would have a pint with. An obsessive individual by all accounts, probably over influenced by reading the Rosewell myths as a kid. He probably expected to find Elvis in there somewhere too.

Most actual cover ups are to conceal incompetence rather than clandestine incursions of little green men, althopugh the latter have an enduring appeal to certain types of nerds - Beam me up Spotty!

Colin
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wbeedie

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2009, 11:09:09 pm »

Gary Mackinnon has Aspergers syndrome or something along that lines which is no rerason to be calling him an obsesive individual Colin  :-))
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2009, 11:13:39 pm »

There,s one thing that you have all failed to point out,Mr Mckinnon,has Aspergers Syndrome,"a form of Autism"which make him lack simple social and cognitive skills,but as most of us know,Autistic people can on the outside look slightly different,but in their brain they can develope many other skills
This is an adult, whom the Americans want to lock up forever,Me,I,d take him to America,but it would be under a heavy disguise,and I,d head straight for Las Vegas,

Wullie
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wbeedie

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2009, 11:16:28 pm »

Seems to me the two Wullies seem to think the same way ,wasnt sure abouty the autism part but thought there was a link :-))
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2009, 11:33:09 pm »

Hi Wheedie,great minds think,alike,well Scottish minds anyway,
It happens all the time regarding people who,without first finding out,the background of individuals, stick a label on them,I have first hand knowledge of this,
I have twin sons,who have a rare syndrome,and Autism forms a part of it,thankfully for them,it a minute part,but there were other parts of this syndrome that made them stand out from the rest,and because of the ignorance of others, there child hood was very hard,and had we listened to the powers that be when they were young,i.e.doctors,psychiatrists,etc they would have been in an institution,by now,but we persevered, and they are both at University now,and very very intelligent,
The Syndrome they have is called "Sotos Syndrome"

Wullie
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OMK

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2009, 11:51:15 pm »

Like I said, so-called 'accounts' and 'reports' are just that; carries about as much weight as any Elvis/Roswell/Martian-men sort of nonsense.... all of which is mostly spouted by attention-seeking non-thinkers for the purpose of massaging their already-inflated egos.
Did anyone see the TV news tonight? Did anyone notice the look on the face of the accused Lockerbie bomber as all his friend/family/blah were whooping and cheering on the steps of the plane? Did he give any impression that he was enjoing a single moment of all that attention? He looked to me like a broken man - the look of a man who has suffered incarceration for a crime he may not have committed. God help me if I'm wrong.
Same deal with Mr McKinnon. One solitary man who has already admitted his crime, now standing against the full weight of the world's control freaks.

Whatsthisgottodowithmodelboatsanyhow.
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2009, 11:57:06 pm »

It proves a point,it may not have anything to do with the price of carrots,but at least it shows that we can all be interactive,outside of our hobby,

Wullie
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OMK

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2009, 12:02:01 am »

"...but we persevered, and they are both at University now, and very very intelligent."

I doff my hat to you, man. Respect!
The next time you find yourself down the library, check out a novel by Dean Koontz - The Bad Place. I shan't give the game away or mention any names other than there is a character within which may just appeal to your sense of fairbeing.
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Peter Fitness

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2009, 01:09:35 am »

365 days of sunshine, sounds nice, but, I'll stick to being here, can't say I'd like being overrun every so often by millions of mice, poisonous toads, equally poisonous snakes, giant crocodiles, 10 year droughts zillions of Baa Baas and God forbid, Fosters Beer, and not forgetting getting clunked on the head by a stray bent stick that didn't return to its sender.

Wullie, I must be in the wrong country...but I'm sure I live in Australia  :o It's cloudy at the moment, I haven't seen a mouse for years, we do get the occasional cane toad here, but a squirt of Dettol sees them off, the snakes are more frightened of me than I am of them, and that's saying something, no crocodiles, giant or otherwise, within 500 miles of us (they're all way up north), we've had 60 inches of rain so far this year, there are no sheep within 100 miles of us, I don't drink Fosters, (give me Fourex Gold every time) and I have managed to avoid all the boomerangs... so far. As Big Fella said, God's own country  O0

Peter.

PS We do have to keep an eye out for the sharks if we go for a surf  :}
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bigfella

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2009, 01:24:34 am »

365 days of sunshine,sounds nice,But,i,ll stick to being here,can,t say i,d like being overrun every so often by millions of mice,poisonous toads,equally poisonous snakes,giant crocodiles,10 year droughts zillions of Baa,Baa,s {-)and God forbid Fosters Beer, {-)and not forgetting getting clunked on the head,by a stray,bent stick that did,nt return to its sender, {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)

Wullie
in Gods other country,well up until yeaterday  {-)

To be honest most Aussies have never seen any of those poisonous creatures or crocs only on the telly or for that matter Fosters {-) {-) And as for the toads well they are like all of us here, besides the Aborigines, and introduced species. Droughts are usually broken by a flood. After all what does not kill you makes you stronger.

Regards David
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nick_75au

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2009, 08:25:36 am »

I beleive its only American tourists that drink fosters ;D

I do take a slight offence  ;) to the UK prisoners comment, having been born in the only Australian state not receiving convicts and having Dutch immigrant parents
As for the rest I agree with Peter and Bigfella

Nick
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2009, 09:46:28 am »

 Gentlemen,i thank you for your comments,which were fair but a bit biased,but having said that,who is,nt of their own country,
When i think back,50 years,my late father & mother,were on the brink of taking up the offer of the 10 assisted passage,to Australia,had it not been for my Dad getting a very well paid job,by 50,s standards on the building of Scotlands Hydro Electric power stations in the Highlands,then i too might have been writing this from where you are all sitting now,
As it is I,m here,and you are there,

Wullie
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Colin Bishop

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2009, 10:12:23 am »

My understanding of Aspergers Syndrome is that it describes certain behavioural patterns of which one element is obsessiveness. But it's not just an on/off condition, it comes by degrees. We all know people with obsessions, many of them are hobbyists and, I daresay, may even build model boats. People who build model railway layouts and run their trains to old Bradshaw timetables may be regarded as a bit odd by the population at large but it is a harmless activity. Unfortunately McKinnon's particular obsession led to him causing considerable damage to US military computer installations (which appear to have been comprehensively itemised). He made up his own set of rules which he felt justified his actions. Obviously his lawyers will play the Aspergers Syndrome card for all it's worth and who could blame them, but it's a pretty vague sort of condition to pin down in absolute terms.

Many people think it's OK to do things because they feel it's right and that makes it OK. A large proportion of the population seem to think it's acceptable to download pirated music because "everyone else does it", but it's not, it's thieving! Others think that defrauding your insurance company on a claim is victimless and "well they deserve it don't they?" Same dishonest attitude of mind as those two girls in Brazil have discovered.

When people are caught out doing something wrong they will do almost anything to avoid having to take the blame and will try and make excuses or shift it elsewhere. My daughter was recently involved in a minor multi car shunt when a woman ran into the back of a line of cars waiting at a roundabout and pushed three of them into each other. The claim is being held up because she is denying liability - presumably she's saying they all reversed into her!

So I'm a bit ambivalent about McKinnon, I think he must accept a degree of responsibility for his actions.

Colin
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wbeedie

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2009, 10:27:26 am »

My understanding of Aspergers Syndrome is that it describes certain behavioural patterns of which one element is obsessiveness. But it's not just an on/off condition, it comes by degrees. We all know people with obsessions, many of them are hobbyists and, I daresay, may even build model boats. People who build model railway layouts and run their trains to old Bradshaw timetables may be regarded as a bit odd by the population at large but it is a harmless activity. Unfortunately McKinnon's particular obsession led to him causing considerable damage to US military computer installations (which appear to have been comprehensively itemised). He made up his own set of rules which he felt justified his actions. Obviously his lawyers will play the Aspergers Syndrome card for all it's worth and who could blame them, but it's a pretty vague sort of condition to pin down in absolute terms.
Aspergers has been said is a form of Autism whish can make people do things that are not  correct is some peoples minds  but that is a form of that condition  and is a disability in its on wayas PTSD which a lot of doctors have touble diagnosing , and a bit like tobacco companies saying smoking doesnt cause cancer
Many people think it's OK to do things because they feel it's right and that makes it OK. A large proportion of the population seem to think it's acceptable to download pirated music because "everyone else does it", but it's not, it's thieving! Others think that defrauding your insurance company on a claim is victimless and "well they deserve it don't they?" Same dishonest attitude of mind as those two girls in Brazil have discovered.
If music companies didnt charge so much for their product a proportion of downloaders wouldnt do it and as for movie downloads around about 60% will buy the proper product when it is released on dvd as they  want to watch a film of which can be of poor quality  and once watched they can decide to buy the real thing  when released to DVD if they liked the film as for the two girls in Brasil that is theft  and they admitted their guilt when caught
When people are caught out doing something wrong they will do almost anything to avoid having to take the blame and will try and make excuses or shift it elsewhere. My daughter was recently involved in a minor multi car shunt when a woman ran into the back of a line of cars waiting at a roundabout and pushed three of them into each other. The claim is being held up because she is denying liability - presumably she's saying they all reversed into her!
First thing your insurance company does is tell you NOT to ADMIT blame i a car accident so is she doing any thing wrong by not admitting liability it is upto the companies to investigate and when all statements are in they can do this
So I'm a bit ambivalent about McKinnon, I think he must accept a degree of responsibility for his actions.

Colin
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2009, 11:07:21 am »

Colin,Its not a case of playing the Aspergers Syndrome for all its worth,Its a case of does he know right from wrong,Just because Doctors can,t give a 100% diagnosis,of this condition,does,nt mean it does not exist,
As said in my previous post,I have some knowledge of these less than 100% diagnosis, conditions,
like the condition my twin sons have,This condition,does not carry a 100% diagnostic evaluation,but they do have it,the way these conditions are diagnosed is,its a points system,take for instance Sotos Syndrome,which is a form of gigantism, with links to autism,It is a genetic disorder,my sons have 1 chromosone less than they should have,had they not been identical twins then only one would have had it,when Doctors test for this condition, they look for things that will match the criteria set by Dr Jaun Sotos,there are 20 pointers,to be diagnosed with this Syndrome the person has to have more than 90% of the pointers,which my sons have,But because they do not match all 20 pointers,therefore there are some who say they don,t have Sotos Syndrome , but they have been granted a Disabled status,by DWP and carry this Disabled "stigma"with them for the rest of their lives,


Wullie
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OMK

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2009, 11:37:24 am »

"So I'm a bit ambivalent about McKinnon, I think he must accept a degree of responsibility for his actions."

That much IS true.
In a lighter vein, he did reveal, when interviewed, that all the while he was connected to their sytem, that he was fully aware that he could have been nabbed at any particular moment. "Pooping bricks" was how he descibed it. Every movement of the mouse from his end would have been seen on the monitors at their end. Someone at the US end eventually noticed the mouse cursor moving, apparently on its own accord. That's how they finally nailed him.
It's still unclear at this time if he actually did cause any damage. He says that he didn't, and was there to purely to pry into their UFO files. The Yanks (understandably) are saying that he DID cause damage. He also revealed that they made it dead easy for him to hack because no-one had bothered to put a password into their computers; he had simply entered straight through an open door, time and time again.
The whole thing, if you omit the severity of the situation, was maybe quite funny - albeit in a weird sort of way. Unfortunately, for Mr McKinnon at least, the Yanks will be doing their level best to make an example of him. And we all know how the American judicial system works, right? The man will never see English soil again.
Again, I am STILL wondering what it was that he found which so incurred their wrath. Because it's not like he busted into the National Security Network, or suchlike. It was just some piddling UFO files - which nobody believes in anyway. Unless, of course, that he actually did find something that the Yanks are real keen to keep secret from the rest of the world. No business of mine, and I couldn't give a care either way. But that doesn't stop me feeling for the dude, because he's bound to get a pretty rough deal, no matter how good his defence is.
I guess the moral is, is you must play with fire, then prepared to get your fingers burnt.
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rob

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2009, 11:45:09 am »

The list is endless.
Was the Lockerbie bomber guilty? Did they have the right man? You and I will never know because that famous Yanky paranoia-syndrome-effect immediately kicks in and innocent people ultimately end up taking the wrap.
Just like they did when.........




Just wait for the film to be released, when the little guy ( ex pilot/samurai etc etc etc ) stars.
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Wasyl

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2009, 12:09:28 pm »

famous Yanky paranoia-syndrome-effect immediately kicks in and innocent people ultimately end up taking the wrap

I, was once a victim of said paranoia,
In 1975 i worked for an American oil company,in the North Sea,on a driling rig,I got the job having passed the the interview,and was with the company for 7 months,when inexplicably,my contract was terminated,by telephone i might add,with no explanation,
I eventually found out why my contract,had been terminated at such short notice,
It was because my Father came from the then USSR,(Ukraine)and he did not hold a British passport,
My late father had served in an SS division,14th Grenadier der SS,(Galician Division)and had been captured by the "Americans),then handed over to the British,then imprisoned in Scotland,he was released in 1949, and allowed to stay here,but he never became a British Subject,as he felt there was no need,
It was because of this that the American Oil company terminated my contract,
Paranoia reigned supreme in pre Glasnost days,

Wullie

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polaris

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2009, 02:04:16 pm »


Dear Colin,

To go back to your Post re scammers, etc., basically yes... it's up to us to be on our guard. If any Govt. can't protect their IT systems - with all the money and expertise they have available to them - it's their own fault, and it's no good their jumping up and down getting cross about it because they have been caught out. Ok, this chap shouldn't have done what he did, but this event will have made sure that Govt. IT Depts. worldwide will be a touch more attentive with their systems. Human failure plays a factor of course, and we have seen for ourselves the 'lost & found CD's' debacle in GB for example - we mustn't forget that in the old days of paper bit's of paper went missing as well! :-) - mind you... they still do! :-)

Regards, Bernard
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andygh

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Re: LOST HOPE
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2009, 08:30:31 pm »

If Gary Mackinnon had taken the plea bargain he would have been out in a few months and rightly so, his mother has done him over good & proper

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm
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