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Author Topic: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203  (Read 80621 times)

Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #75 on: December 16, 2009, 10:30:28 PM »

I have been working on the stern frames and remaking the plywood stern support, the subject of my last post.

As part of all of this I've been looking at fairing all the frames in order that they might give me the correct shape of the fore and aft stern frames. :-)

I'm using pine cut into battens at scale thickness of 4mm x 6mm wide to fair the hull frames.

Again I have been side tracked, >>:-( this time by troubles with the last three frames in the ship. On the lines plans the frames seem fair but when put into the ship and viewed in three dimensions things are far from good :((



One of my planking bench marks is the transition plank at the top of the stern post where things switch to horizontal at the rudder port in the hull. This will be no 8 plank up from the keel and it cuts across the top of the stern post in a rabbet at that point.

In the above photo the bottom most fairing batten hits the stern post at this point. :-))

The problem has been that the batten could not reach this point with the original frames shapes at 16, 18 and 20.

Out with the multitool and its wobbly snake extension and my tile cutting bit. :-))



To get the battens to hit my bench mark and make a fair curve I was forced to reduce the frames somewhat and this can be seen in the above photo.



Same location from above, you can clearly see the steps that the battens sit in to get them to run in sweet curves.



There used to be an unnatural hump in the battens here and I hope you can see that they now take a fair sweep into the stern. The port side frames are still the original shape and a comparison in shape can be made.

When I'm satisfied with the fairing on the starboard side I will make templates and transfer the respective shapes to the frames on the port side.

A bloke can never be sure a scaled up lines plan is truly correct until he builds a model from them and this build is a point in case.



Now the battens take a fair curve that I'm happy with.





Note the support post at the far stern supporting the plywood form at its correct height from the building board.

The chamfer you can see is to outside of planking and you can see an explorative notch which when faired with other notches yet to be cut will give the curve to inside of planking which will in turn give me the shape of the horn timbers (stern frames) where they will eventually cut through the arch boards in the deck.

The fun thing about scratch building is that there are new challenges to overcome at every turn O0 {-)
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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2009, 09:57:41 AM »

It's been bugging me why my frames are so far out >>:-( >>:-(

On pondering the reason I have come up with the answer. :-))

There are two reasons combined, 1. the thickness of the plywood used for the frames, 2. the depth of the planking taken off the lines plan sections to get the frame shapes and the acute angle with which the planks meet the frames at the bow and stern.

The outside of planking is near enough on the mark when compared to the lines plan.

Problem 1 Frame thickness. The frames are 11mm thick which means the opposite face to that positioned on the plan sections are conciderably different in shape, particularly at the stern.

Had the frames been made out of 1mm sheet steel this problem would not have arisen.

Problem 2. The depth subtracted for planking thickness. If you were to take a plank 4mm thick and cut it 90 degrees to the plank surface, the plank will be 4mm thick easy! but if you now cut the plank at a shallow angle the resultant face edge is conciderably longer. My mistake was deducting 4mm from outside of planking across the board for all frames. Fine along the centre line where there is little bevel but things go all wobbly at the ends! >>:-( >:-o

Being a fairly experienced builder I should have realised this one but my excuse is that this is the first build after a 15 year absence! It's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! O0 {-)

When looking at the depth of cuts into the edges of my stern frames to make things fair it looks as though things will be horribly out of shape but then the bench mark point I mentioned in my last post at the stern post says other wise and as I say I had a similar problem at the bow with the frames but to a much lesser degree.

Life would be boring it it were just plain sailing! O0 {-) {-)
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Greggy1964

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The shape of things to come
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2009, 02:14:58 PM »

Ive been grinding away at my dodgy frames, eking out their true shape  :-))



And running pine battens around the frames to pick out her curves.



Working out just exactly how the planks will form around that tuck under the stern where they go from vertical to almost horizontal in such a short space. <*<





The battens are rough and ready but show that by laying down the ground work with the frames and rabbet first, everything starts falling into place.



In this photo you can see the multi tool that has been responsible for this work . . . . . . . . . I love this tool! :-)) O0 {-)



The transverse batten at the stern marks the point where the planks will end and the four transverse stern boards will start. There will be carved blocks that fit under the quarter timbers in the corners. These will close off the end grain of the stern boards which will butt up to them



You can see the makings of this piece in this photo.

I'm nearly there.

Soon comes the best bit, laying the planks proper :-)) O0


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Hammer

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »

Just joined this site, Like the look of your Master Hand. I have a 5/8 = 1" model of a sailing trawler Albatross Of Lowestoft. 4 years old sails well, All rigging as full size no bowses. Double planked all over. has a retracting center plate and expanding rudder ( remote controlled) Keep up the good work .  Photo 1 reffed right down in a blow, No 2 nice summer sailing, No 3 looking along the deck.  HAMMER.
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tigertiger

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2010, 04:02:21 AM »

Lovely model Hammer  :-))
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tigertiger

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2010, 04:08:32 AM »

Hi Greg

I had problems with the tuck under the stern as well.
I soaked planks in window cleaner and tried steaming, but to no avail.
My 3mm x 8mm planks wouldn't do it.

My 'bodge'  %)
I went down to 3x3 and even 3x1, filing to fit at the ends.
But had to resort to some bodyfiller as well.

I look forward to your 'solution'. :D
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Hammer

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2010, 02:49:34 PM »

My solution Tiger. well I had no problem anywear with the planking. I just cheated.  I cut down 5/8" + 1- 1/2" roofing batten (treted) into 3/32"+5/8" strips, this was the first layer of planks? This layer was rubbed down then any hollows or holes filled with sawdust and glue mix (old chippies trick) then rubbed down again. The next layer was 1.5mm ply cut too 1/4" strips. No water gets inside, except when the center plate box split and she sank!! Lukily the river was only 4'9" deap and the mast was 2" taller. Hammer where are you Greg.
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dreadnought72

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #82 on: February 05, 2010, 07:09:20 PM »

*bump*

(Andy scans horizon for Greg and this must-read build. "We've not had nuffin since December!")

Andy
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Enjoying every minute sailing W9465 Mertensia

Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2010, 12:52:07 PM »

Hello Hammer,

Your ship is beautiful, and I will be very happy if Master Hand turns out to be such a splendid model as yours.

Terry, Hammer,

The planking at the stern is difficult to visualise, the first three planks of the sides at deck level take a sharp twist under the stern where they meet the transverse stern board under the tuck of the stern.

When I get to that point I will show detailed photos of the planking for you.
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Hammer

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #84 on: March 04, 2010, 07:57:51 PM »

Welcome back Greggy, This is the best photo I can get of the secsion of planking you are on about. just where the flash is reflecting! Although I tried not to fill the joints but they don,t show very well. Just got my model back from the museum where it's been on loan. they only let me have it because they had a leak?
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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #85 on: March 11, 2010, 08:22:15 PM »

My plans are to start planking when the weather gets a little warmer ( I don't do cold!), this is so I can work outside with a planer to thin my planking stock to scale plank thickness.

Its not practical to do it in ones kitchen (tried it  O0 ) cos the whole house ends up coated in a fine layer of dust and I nearly had a  <*< mutiny  <*< on my hands in the form of my teenage daughters! :police: :o {-) {-) {-)

Funny old thing but they don't like a wood dust coating on all their trendy clothes (what are they anyway?)

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Hammer

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #86 on: April 13, 2010, 09:11:44 PM »

Greggy, In photo(not good) of the stern planking on albatross a couple of joints can just be made out. I cheat a lot but try to keep it secret but for you I tell. Albatross hull is double planked I didn't want an leaks. Despite this she has sunk, once it was at the Weymouth Show, what an embarrassment, The center plate box split, very strong wind only scale boat sailing. Luck was with me however, water 4ft9 mast 4ft11 so didn't impede the rescue. No other damage and the split repaired. First layer of planks 1/8 strips 3/4in treated tile batten. I then covered this with saw dust mixed with white glue, too fill any imperfections rubbed down after drying. The second layer 1/16" ply average 3/8wide, 1/2" widest 1/4 at narrowest.  I was careful not to fill the joints this time as like you I wanted the scale planking to show. Just like the preserved trawlers at Brixham, about 15 miles from me.  You ask about the stay sail control, cheating again, a fine thread exits a hole under the center of the horse onto a "D" shackle on the clue, hanging from the clue is a Gun tackle which hooks onto the horse when not sailing.                 
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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2010, 09:25:31 PM »

Don't you just hate it when your boat sinks? :embarrassed: {-)

I once run over one of those matchbox flower class corvettes with a little speed boat I built.

It rode up over the stern and got wedged forcing the stern of the poor corvette underwater.

In due time she sank stern first :o it was classic footage, wonderful to see, only I didn't have me camera >>:-(

Me speed boat settled back in the water as if nothing had happened with only the odd bubble to show for the drama {-) {-)

The owner was non too chuffed <*<

The lad refused to rescue it preferring to leave it 5ft down on the bottom of the pond radio gear batteries and all! {:-{

So I did the descent thing and dived in after it.

Bit of a damp sail day when the only bottom I intended to get wet was that of me speed boat! :-))
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duke of brabant

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2010, 09:13:27 PM »

Hello Greggy,

I'm currently building a static model of Master hand at a scale of 1/30 or 1" to 2 1/2'. E.J. March's book sits on my shelf.
While wandering through the vastness of internet, hoping to find some extra details of trawlerbuilding in Rye, I came across your topic here at modelboatmayhem.
I have to say, I'm impressed with the elaborate account of your project.  :-))
I'm a member of a french static modelling forum of Mr Gérard Delacroix, author of numerous historical monographies on shipbuilding in France.
This is the link to my topic on Master Hand : http://forum.aceboard.net/5500-323-40359-2-Master-Hand-chalutier-anglais.htm .
You'll find lots of pics of my progress and methods there.
At this time the hull is in frames and the stern is being built up , with the obvious question of the quarter timbers.

unfortunately,  my free time is a bit scarce due to my job. <:(

Anyhow, as our projects are quite similar, I'll try to post some pics here every once in a while, or stop by to discuss building problems. 

Best regards,

Nick
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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2010, 09:48:17 AM »

Hello Duke of Brabant, :-)

Your model of Master Hand is beautiful :-)), I have often considered building her with scale frames and timbers as you have done and its wonderful to see a 'dock yard' model of her taking shape.

Now I know of your build, I will follow it with great interest :-))

The quarter timbers and how they meet with the frames, and particularly how the lower face of the timbers and the area beneath the planking in the corners of the stern is a difficult conundrum as different yards dealt with the issue in their own way as suited the master builder.

E.J.M. surveyed the vessel while she was being converted to a motor vessel as I'm sure you will know and he would not have had access to that part of the frames and so the drawings are necessarily vague.

There are a couple of photos early in E.J.M's book which give a clue but as yet my own research in the matter has drawn a blank.

If you discover information on the subject I would gratefully request that you let me know and I will reciprocate the gesture :-))

Regards

Greg
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duke of brabant

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #90 on: April 17, 2010, 09:03:26 AM »

Hello again Greggy,

Here's a couple of photographs of the positioning of the quarter timbers as I interpreted the drawings in the book.

This is a side view (obviously %)) with the quarter timbers sitting on top of the prolonged shelf.
Under the shelf on portside you can see a filling piece with triangular section at the place where it butts against the fashiontimber.
i fitted this to stiffen the whole and to add more fixing area for the stern boards and hull planking.
also visible is the arch board ( fitted temporarely)
On starboard side the shelf and how it prolongs behind the fashion timber is quite obvious to see.
The inside part aft and under was cut away to make room for a filling timber of the stern, hence the wedgelike shape. the outside part has enough body to hold the quarter timber, or so it seems to me.

In this view from the back you can see how much the shelf prolongation aft jumps outwards to leave room for a filling timber.

All of this I chose because of a number of hints in the book. Pages 282 and 285 the front end of the quarter timber is shown on top of the shelf and the bolts are drawn too. On page 65 Fig.6 it says: "Quarter timber bolts on shelf. i think EJM mentions it also somewhere else in the book but I can't find it right away. {:-{

Maybe my solution looks a bit odd, but I think like this the quarter timbers are a bit more prohibited from canting at the fashion timber.
There's no beam behind the stern, so no "lifting" forces.

By the way, I think the choice of holly is nice, it's strong and beautiful, I've used it on previous models for decking.

looking forward to read your comments,

Nick

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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #91 on: April 17, 2010, 01:41:33 PM »

Hello Nick,

Thank you for your interpretations of the Master hand plans, you idea seems the most plausible to me, I have sketched out how I would imagine it to go which is slightly different to your interpretation but along the same lines.



If you follow this link, the sketch may be zoomed in on for a clearer image :-))

On the drawings beam 'U' is massive 8" x 8" as compared to the rest of the 6 1/2" x 6" deck beams and the reason for this I think is to support the fashion timbers by 'hanging' them on the ends of beam U like a cantilever which in turn is supported by the top of the deadwoods immediately in front of the stern post (fig 38 page 287).

In photo 22 you can see the quarter and stern timbers installed but as yet no beam shelf

In my 3D sketch above you see the top of the fashion timber together with the end of beam U and how I interpreted it would fit together, the quarter timber frame is 8" wide by 8" deep at its front face but the tops of the frames timbers are 4" moulded by 5" sided which to my mind means that the quarter projects inboard of the inside face of the fashion frame by 4" onto which the beam shelf some how runs (I have omitted the beamshelf itself in my sketch above for clarity).

I would suggest that the beam shelf cuts into this area of the quarter timber by an open mortise

The sketch redrawn below will hopefully clarify my idea on the subject



I welcome discussions with you on this any any other areas of Master Hand's build both on your project and my own O0 :-))

Regards

Greg
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duke of brabant

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #92 on: April 17, 2010, 06:38:39 PM »

hello Greg,

Great sketches you've made. They're very easy to comprehend O0.
At first, that is after quite a few weeks of searching in websites of reconstructions of sailing smacks, I also tended for your idea of build-up. Most reconstructions or repairs show a single piece of wood for quarter timbers.
i.e. all stern timbers butt against fashion frames and shelves end in a notch on the ineer side of the quarter timbers.

But then this bolt caught my eyes, why would there be a vertical bolt through the tip of the quarter timber and the shelf unless it was needed to hold them firmly together?

So I developed a prolonged shelf on top of which the quarters are fitted. The idea was to see if the horizontal dent (the move from inside the frames towards the continuation of the outer mould of the frames) after the fashion timber would be feasable, not just to cut out of one single piece of wood in real scale, but also to find out if there was enough mass of wood to counter splitting or breaking due to pressure from rough seas.

Actually your solution makes way for stronger quarter timbers and probably firmer assembly with beam U. mine would need more ekeing above the shelf.
EJM was quite meticulous in his work but unfortunately he was not a ship designer, so some details are missing in his drawings.


Of course, that is not a real reproach towards the author, he's done a terrific job  O0

I can tell a bit about my choice of building Master hand.
My interest goes to local sailing fishing craft. There's a lot of types on the flemish coast and in the Scheld delta.
I wanted to make a smack as seen in Ostend for many decades, but plans of local builders are not readily found. :(( Then I found a copy of the longitudinal cutaway of Master Hand in a 70's book on flemish fishing.
The searh for March's book was short, and the result so far is not bad, if I may say so.

I am most curious to see your model being built and hope to see her sailing soon.

 At the end of may there's a gathering of traditional sailing ships in Ostend, I hope at least of the existing smacks will be there.
If so I'll try to visit.


Have a nice weekend.

Nick
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Greggy1964

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #93 on: April 17, 2010, 07:05:49 PM »

Hello Nick,

Your dock yard model is quite beautiful to look at, her frames show off Master hands lines so well.

Not being able to see through a wooden ship to see her actual construction details can pose difficult problems as ship wrights would tend to follow in their masters foot steps regards designs.

Ships were built from carved half models with perhaps a few sketches with most of the construction details stored in the master builders head.

In the same stern area, how do you think the stern ends of the deck planks meet with the arch board?

Are they just butted up or were they dowelled into the edge of the arch board?  What do you think?

I find the subject fascinating but I prefer sailing models because this animates the subject so well.

Its a matter of personal choice of course, though saying that if my Master Hand is a success I plan to build another at an even bigger scale, 1/12 of 1/8 scale maybe.

I have the lines drawings for Excelsior, another Sailing Trawler, one who is still sailing out of Lowestoft.



At this scale it would be fun to put in all the timbers to scale as you have done.

Greg
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duke of brabant

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2010, 08:42:05 AM »

Greg,

As I'm a bit of al landrat, the technique of sailing is a gap in my knowledge  :((
But maybe one day I'l catch that virus too.

As for the arch board, there's no clarity in the plans.
the 4 planks after the helmport should rest on small shelves nailed to the outside of the helmport walls. There is no sign of such support.
I think the deck planks at the arch board side, probably rest on the arch board itself, there's no way to fit a suitable beam under their ends, the weak slope of stern timbers giving very little room.
Also the front face of the arch board is already above the stern timbers by about an inch, so the planks can't rest on them either.
I've made a notch in the arch boards front side to rest the planks upon. But it's still a bit of a fragile solution, the deck nailing will be fixed more weakly and I imagine the stern suffers a lot of strain in a good swell.

I'm off now, the next week I'm very busy at the job, will try to pop in when possible. O0

nick
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duke of brabant

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Hello Greg,

Here's a few links to  websites of smacks.
 You'll find that some of them have an extended account of their restauration in recent years.
Pioneer, Lord Nelson, Pilgrim, Boy Leslie have great photographs of these works. :-))

www.excelsiortrust.co.uk
www.keewaydin.co.uk
www.kjappeal.org/index.html            (Kenja Jacaranda)
www.trinitysailing.co.uk                    (Provident, Leader)
www.pilgrimofbrixham.co.uk   
www.pioneersailingtrust.org.uk
www.vigilanceofbrixham.co.uk
www.deodar.se
www.lordnelsonsmf.com/lindos.htm
http://boy-leslie.no/index.html

Deodar, Lord Nelson and Boy Leslie are in Swedish hands, so you'll need to translate the pages (easy with Chrome)


As for the quarter timbers, I've excluded my experiment with the dented shelf. <:(
I'm busy cutting out two new quarter timbers in the way you suggested. Your idea looks quite solid with the quarters bolted to the fashion frame, bolted to the shelf and bolted to beam U. Beam U is probably locked in a notch on the inner side of the quarter, to keep the section area of the quarter big enough in this place.
In some of the above links I found some photo's of sterns being built up, but there are slight differences in the shape of the quarter timbers . Only for Pioneer some detailed photo's of the quarter timbers are inserted.

Hope this can be of some help,
 Soon as my new pieces are ready, I'll post some photo's,

Nick


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vintagent

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Fascinating thread.
Any progress, greggy?

Love to see how you're working in less than ideal circumstances and not throwing money at it. Well done for that.
I too got a bandsaw from a Sunday market. 12 quid.  I got 5 assorted blades from ebay for less than 30.
The speed of cutting stuff is a joy now!
I think you're brave using oak. Having just restored an oak narrow boat, I can confirm that the damned stuff walks overnight. One day a gap, the next none. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, but if it's an old table it should have seasoned by now, I suppose!
Anyway, keep it up, it's going to be a beaut.
Regards,
Vintagent
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Greggy1964

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Hello Vintagent,

Thank you for your kind comments and your interest in this project.

Master Hand has been a project in the making and labour of love 20 odd years and in the beginning I built her to the finished hull stage at a smaller scale but sadly back then divorce forced me to sell everything to keep my head above water so to speak.

Still on the back burner, the idea remained until things were reignited last year and hence the subject of this thread.

She has been put on the back burner again while I sort out 'personal issues' once again but I promise I will pick up the baton again when things are sorted.

I apologise to all foillowing my thread for leaving you in mid air and I will make ammends in the future. :embarrassed:

Greg
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vintagent

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No problems, Gregg...Ship happens, mate.

Regards,
Vintagent
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Hammer

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Re: 3/4" to the foot model of Lowestoft Sailing Trawler Master Hand LT1203
« Reply #99 on: December 20, 2010, 12:17:33 PM »

The photo above, I had to look twice for a moment I thought it was my model. Robert (Geoff) Y
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