Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Winch control of foresail on my new project.  (Read 5309 times)

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« on: September 12, 2009, 10:08:51 pm »

I'm a bit stumped as to how I'm going to connect a sail winch to the foresail on my new sailing trawler project.

On the real ship the sail had a tackle consisting of two deadeyes, one on a long hook that went through a cringle on the clew of the foresail and the other shackled to another hook that worked on an iron horse on the foredeck.

The two deadeyes were connected via a lanyard that was rove through the two and shortened and lengthened as desired.

The problem is that the tail of this lanyard was belayed around itself when the desired length between the two hooks was achieved.

How do I run a sheet control through the deck to a winch and still keep a scale appearance with the deadeyes and lanyard business.

I've done a quick sketch to give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.

Ideas most welcome.
Logged

wideawake

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2009, 10:26:44 pm »

Hi Greggy

Is it essential to sheet the sail in and out or would it be sufficient to control the position of the traveller on the horse.  That would be much easier!   Otherwise I suspect the answer may be to set up the deadeyes and lanyard closehauled and run the sheet through the traveller to the lower deadeye so that  the whole tackle moves away from the horse when you sheet out.  Not ideal but I would think not vry obvious once sailing.

HTH

Guy
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2009, 11:22:31 pm »

Hi Wideawake,

Thanks for your input, I will give your ideas some thought

She's going to be big so it's got to look proper!

It is important to me to have control of the foresail but I want if possible to keep scale appearance.

I was hoping to have control of jib, foresail, main and mizzen all separately and keep scale rudder. By backing the jib and foresail I hoped to be able to bring her head through the wind as they seemed to have done on the real thing.

The grand plan is to run fair leads (using either brass tube or brake pipe material) from the winches below decks to disguised openings in the deck to allow sheets to pass to the sails.

The mainsail uses two double blocks, the one on deck is housed in the main sheet chock (the sheaves on the model will be 8.5mm dia.!) the other on the boom.

The mizzen is similar with the lower block anchored on the taffrail and I plan to use working tackle if possible with the winch ends disappearing sneakily below decks.

The jib sheets reeve through holes cut in pads on the faces of the bulwarks near the bows so I can make the working ends disappear down the side of stanchions.

As far as the foresail . . . . .

I'm hoping to deal with it all at the planning stage so I can design everything into the construction before I begin.

If i used an exit point centrally below the horse where the sheet went to the traveller and hence to the clew of the sail would this allow the traveller to traverse the full width of the horse?

How do the guys with the barges deal with it?
Logged

tobyker

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Location: Scotland - West Coast
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2009, 11:33:06 pm »

Don't pull from the centre of the horse - I'd set up the deadeyes etc close-hauled and take a sheet fixed at the clew, through a tag on the top deadeye, back through an eye on the clew and forward along the foot of the sail to the tack and thence ito your pipe below decks. Your main problem will be the weight of the deadeye arrangement in light airs - in fact it might be better to start your sheet at the foot of the deadeyes, and take it through them up to the clew - this will at least keep them at the correct angle. (foregoing assumes clew is bottom aft corner of sail  and tack is foot of forestay - I keep forgetting which is which!)

Scale sail is the most fun.
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 12:59:31 am »

Great idea Tobyker :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) %% %)

What a topping bloke!

I love your idea! :}

The foresail is 340 sq inches in area so its going to be quite large, the tack is the fixed forward corner at the stem head and the clew is at the opposite end of the foot of the sail. If I use fine but strong thread (my brothers big bobbin of fine white fishing braid springs to mind!). . . . . . . .

I have spotted a photo of an old sailing trawler that used single blocks instead of deadeyes which would make my life easier and it would still be in keeping with the period.
 
I could run it along the foot of the sail in fine brass loops sewn to the bolt rope and it would be barely visible and I can keep my deadeyes/blocks and lanyard tackle working on its horse on deck.

The sheet would be fixed at the the clew of the sail, thence down to the pulley on the traveller at the horse, back up through the top pulley and along the foot of the sail!

Love it!

You just have relieved the biggest headache on the job so far!

I'm sooo happy!
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 12:57:32 pm »

Just worked out the total sail area on this sailing trawler

1500 sq inches :o
Logged

tobyker

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Location: Scotland - West Coast
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 10:19:15 pm »

Very glad to be of assistance but it's only what some of the racing boats do - or used to do! It's the only practical way I know of letting a sail set properly to a horse.
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail running on a horse for my new project.
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 11:21:37 pm »

Hello yachty folks :-)

Can anyone direct me to info on the details of a foresail running on a horse where the sheet is taken along the foot of the sail to the tack and hence through the deck to a winch allowing the sail to tack correctly across the horse?

Tobyker kindly mentioned the idea but I'm unable to find any photos of the set up.

Any help will be greatly appreciated. :-))
Logged

MikeK

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Utter Bloody Chaos !!
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 07:36:32 am »

Cannot help you I'm afraid, but would like to take my hat off to Tobyker for a nifty piece of lateral thinking, I would use this in future on any similar sail set up.


Mike
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 10:50:37 pm »

Hello MikeK

I agree, briiliant idea :-))

Just gotta work out the technical details. :o

If I can't find anything, my plan is to build to the floating stage and set up the mast and sails over an open deck until I get the ship sailing properly and with everrything working and then fit the deck and all the details.
Logged

MikeK

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Utter Bloody Chaos !!
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 07:50:48 am »

Morning Greggy, I'm sure there is a glaring reason I'm missing, but why could you not take the sheeting line (by tube or whatever) to directly below the foresail stay. Either run it through a small deck block or have the tube point towards the clew of the sail, where another small block would be attached - not looking too much out of place ? - thence along to the tack block and then horse. To ordinary mortals I'm sure it would all look very nautical/natural and the nit-pickers/perfectionists are in the minority ! ok2 :-))

Mike
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 02:00:04 pm »

Morning Mike,

On Master Hand as in all sailing trawlers of the 1900's the foresail ran on a 38mm diameter iron horse that ran across the deck from bulwark to bulwark just in front of the main mast and as you can see from the photo, it was quite a prominant feature of the foredeck.

My model is at 1/16th scale so I want to be able to have all rigging as close to original as possible as I want to depict the original, nails, ring bolts and all, on the model this feature will be 2.4mm diameter.



As you can see in the photo the foresail bullseye and tackle run freely on the horse. The foresail sheet is running along the deck down the starboard side of the winch to the tack of the foresail which is collapsed over the bowsprit and the stem head.

The standing end of the foresail sheet was fixed to a becket on the single sheave horse block, and ran through the single block at the tack of the fore sail and back through the horse block and back up to the foresail.



The block at the foresail had a long hook fixed to it which hooked through the cringle at the tack of the foresail, and the running end of the sheet was belayed around its self at the hook. This way to adjust the sail a crew member only needed stand at the foresail tack and loosen the running end of the sheet a little allowing it to slip until he got the sail setting required and then belay it again as before.

In the above photo, the foresail is held 'aweather' by a rope tackle to the port rail and you can see how the foresail sheet is belayed to itself. In the fore ground the crew are hauling the trawl with the guy at the steam winch is hauling the trawl warpe, they had proper ropes in them days! :-)) O0 {-)

I agree it would be simple to just run the sheet on the model through a hole below the centre of the horse but at 1/16 scale I think it would be glaringly wrong O0, if all else fails though this is how I will do things but I'm hoping I can make Tobyker's suggestion to work as it will be as close as humanly possible to the original but still allow me to control the sail via a winch below decks. :-))

I have to confess I've spent hours pouring over this and all the other photos of these ships to the point of obsession :embarrassed:, this model has been bubbling on the back burner of my mind for years and I want to get it just right O0 {-) :-)

I was lucky enough to be able to explore the "William McCann" which is the last of large sailing trawlers at 84 feet stem to stern. She was built for Hull fishing fleet and when she sailed into Bridlington harbour about 10 years ago.

On learning my intentions the skipper kindly allowed me to crawl all over the ship taking notes, sketches and photos and I'm afraid I was hooked! :D :embarrassed:
Logged

MikeK

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Utter Bloody Chaos !!
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 05:24:03 pm »

'Evening now !!
I see what you mean about the horse. On my barge the mainsail has the sheeting line coming out of a lead below the centre of the horse then back and forth through two single and a double block, as with yours, on the full size, the sheeting was secured around the tackle so the whole thing slid across towing the tail of the sheeting behind it.
I have just checked back to my previous and sorry, I got my clews and tacks mixed up ! and me a decky as well  :embarrassed: I meant run the sheeting tube to below the forestay then the line up to the tack of the sail then along the foot to the clew thence to the horse. You could always run the sheet through a block on the traveller and back to a double eyed block on the clew to look a little like the full size. Either way I think you will have to sacrifice some scale to achieve a working model. I will be interested to hear your eventual solution  O0

Mike

PS I've just looked at the pictures again and suddenly had a thought  :o I was assuming the tack of the foresail was over the deck, but if it is attached to the bowsprit then thats shot that idea down !
Logged

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 07:58:14 pm »

Make your sheet fast to the clew ---then run it down through a single block on the horse---then back up through a single block hooked into the clew--- then run the sheet to a block made fast to the forestay below the tack----then to the fairlead in the deck and to the winch ---I wouldn't run the sheet through rings on the foot of the sail as this will set up a lot of extra friction and might distort the set of the sail...... It is possible to back the sail when tacking by hauling the sheet in hard just before she comes into the wind this will tend to jam the block running on the horse on the wrong tack and backs the sail .... when she is safely on the new tack slack the sheet and the block should clear it's self ....then you can sheet in on the new tack
Freebooter :-))
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

tobyker

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
  • Location: Scotland - West Coast
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2009, 11:00:38 pm »

The nearest thing to a diagram I've seen is in Jeffries' book "radio control for model Yachts" where he uses a second servo as a "jib twitcher"fig 18 page 43. The line marked"to sail winch" should go to the horse, and the line shown as going to the Jib Vernier servo will be your jib sheet. My scanner is u/s at the moment as my lad has got me Windows 7 for my new PC and I haven't got a W7 driver for my Medion scanner. (All to be rectified when I get a new all-in-one HP printer.) Perhaps someone who has got a copy of the book could scan it in for Greggy. My only point of caution is that I'm not sure if this arrangement will work on a loose-footed sail - you'd have to try it to see see how the angles worked, as tensioning the sheet might tend to bunch the sail up. However, you might be able to hide some sort of stiffener/batten in the hem at the foot of the sail.
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2009, 11:14:04 pm »

Thanks for your input fellas :-))

Some interesting ideas to chase up, I'm a long way off putting any of this into practice but it don't hurt to plan ahead O0
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2009, 11:58:24 pm »

Mike, with reference to the jib . . . . . . .

The jib tack runs on a traveller to the end of the bowsprit and has twin sheets. The standing end of these sheets are knotted on the inside of the bulwark and lead through the forward of a pair of fairlead holes half way between the deck and the rail and opposite the windlass, then out to ring at the clew of the jib and then back to the aft fair lead hole of the pair in the same bulwark to be belayed on a cavil rail fixed to the stanchions. Port and starboard sheets are a mirror image.



The bowsprit in the above image is past the main mast which means it is run in and rests on the roller at the main mast for this purpose. The bowsprit ran on another roller at the wooden windlass which is forward of the winch.

The starboard windlass end can be seen with the foresail draped over it in front of the winch. The bowspit ran between two bitts at the windlass and belayed there when run out.

You can just see a chink of light under the draped foresail where the bowsprit runs through a hole in the starboard bulwark at the side of the stem head.

There is a sheave at the aft end of the bowsprit. The heel rope standing end was fast the the starboard winlass bitt, around the sheave at the heel of the bowsprit and back to a sheave on the port windlass bitt, then back to the steam capstan via snatch blocks fixed to the deck. The capstan can be just seen bottom left in the photo to the left of the bowsprit heel.

On the model I will run the running ends of the jib sheets to fairlead tubes inside the bulwarks at the fair leads and below decks to a winch and hide this behind a false belayed sheets coiled on the cavil rail. :-))

The jib seems much easier to deal with than the foresail {-)
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2009, 12:11:41 am »

Mike,

I have just realised something :embarrassed:

I'm getting my tacks and my clews mixed up in my last but one post :embarrassed:, the tack of the foresail is fixed to the stem head at the bow, the long hook at the top of the horse tackle goes through a cringle at the clew of the foresail.

Sorry for the confusion %)
Logged

MikeK

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 991
  • Utter Bloody Chaos !!
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 07:29:38 am »

Mike,

I have just realised something :embarrassed:

I'm getting my tacks and my clews mixed up in my last but one post :embarrassed:, the tack of the foresail is fixed to the stem head at the bow, the long hook at the top of the horse tackle goes through a cringle at the clew of the foresail.

Sorry for the confusion %)


No worries - it must be catching ! So, if the 'front corner' of the foresail is fixed to the stem head, the idea of running the sheet from the front to the back could work. Doesn't sound as technical in plain English does it !  %%

Mike
Logged

Greggy1964

  • Guest
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 09:58:31 am »

I got so confused I had to look it up myself! {-)

When talking about trianular sails anyway, the tack is the fixed corner and the clew is the corner the sheet is attached to O0
Logged

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2009, 01:36:35 pm »

Sorry Lads
I spent so long at sea I tend to forget that what to me is standard everday terms is Greek to people ashore --- perhaps this will help
 Triangle sail
Peak = top corner of the sail
Luff  = leading edge or front of the sail
tack  = lower forward corner of the sail
Foot  = bottom or lower edge of the sail
Clew  = lower after or lower back corner top edge of the sail
leach = trailing edge of the sail

Trapezoid or gaff sail
Peak   = top corner of the sail
Head  = upper edge of the sail
Throat = upper leading corner (next to the mast)of the sail
Freebooter :-))
 
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn

Jimmy James

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 988
  • Location: Kings Lynn Norfolk
Re: Winch control of foresail on my new project.
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 02:17:26 pm »

Please Note Mistake on the line CLEW
  Should Read (Lower corner at after end of sail
  Finger trouble
Freebooter
Logged
Retired  Ships Officer/ Master.
Experience: 50+ years at sea under Sail, Steam & Motor
Kings Lynn
Pages: [1]   Go Up