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Author Topic: Wishful Thinking ?  (Read 3322 times)

DickyD

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Wishful Thinking ?
« on: September 14, 2009, 08:53:45 AM »

Computer generated photo released by the Royal Navy of one of their new carriers at Portsmouth.

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Bryan Young

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 06:00:03 PM »

Computer generated photo released by the Royal Navy of one of their new carriers at Portsmouth.


Looks a bit "second-hand" already...and it isn't even built yet! I'm sure the Bishop will recall my ancient postings doubting if the things would ever get built. Still waiting...... BY.
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BarryM

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 06:53:23 PM »

....and the escorts needed to let it put its bows beyond the breakwater?

....or the planes it is supposed to support?

One might get built to keep the voters on side in Govan and Rosyth but two?

Barry M
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funtimefrankie

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 07:44:13 PM »

The Tories said, today, they would not build these if they get in..............
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BarryM

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 07:57:09 PM »

Ah well, bye bye carriers.

Barry M
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Jimmy James

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2009, 08:11:12 PM »

IF they do get built doz the sky ramp mean they are going to use Harriers as I thought they were being fazed out???
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Niall

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2009, 09:19:25 PM »

They are to be built for the V/STOL variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, now called the F35B Lightning 2.
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fooman2008

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 04:23:45 AM »

Now, since they have canceled two thirds of the escorts for her (to be able to pay for her) shouldn't the proper caption read half the RN and a large part of the fighter force of the RAF in a computer generated picture?
Foo
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Bryan Young

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2009, 04:56:07 PM »

If you can send your brain back to the days of the Wilson government I think you will recall a very similar situation. Except that the "escorts" (or some of them) were built before the carrier(s). "Bristol" comes to mind first. Then possibly the "County" class destroyers....except that they were really cruisers in disguise. Lots of RFAs. All left without the prime purpose for their being.
I'm delighted that this has happened under yet another Labour administration. Let's face it, these 2 new carriers are just a big and expensive ego trip. Tie in the almost embargo on recruitment and then think of the manning scale. Oh,dear. What a cock-up. BY.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 02:46:05 PM »

Just found a good word that explains most of the last century or so-
Kakistocracy: a form of government whose rulers are the least competent, least qualified or most unprincipled of all citizens.


 
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Circlip

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2009, 03:35:54 PM »

No, the skyramp allows the aircraft to chuck themselves orft the deck at the correct angle of attack (NOT a pun) and acts as a fuel saving device. Or so we were TOLD at the time.   O0   :-))

   Regards  Ian
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Bryan Young

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2009, 06:48:13 PM »

No, the skyramp allows the aircraft to chuck themselves orft the deck at the correct angle of attack (NOT a pun) and acts as a fuel saving device. Or so we were TOLD at the time.   O0   :-))

   Regards  Ian
Why the implied cynicism? The ramp has proved its worth. But I think it really only works with "jump jets". Maybe "standard" fixed wing things take off at a higher speed. So my silly logic tells me that a "big" carrier should have two strips. Unless, of course, the boffins can come up with a "bendy" catapult. Would play havoc with the underdeck space though!. BY.
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andyn

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2009, 09:59:40 PM »

Why the implied cynicism? The ramp has proved its worth. But I think it really only works with "jump jets". Maybe "standard" fixed wing things take off at a higher speed. So my silly logic tells me that a "big" carrier should have two strips. Unless, of course, the boffins can come up with a "bendy" catapult. Would play havoc with the underdeck space though!. BY.

If you look closely, you'll see the deck is covered with VSTOL aircraft...
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DARLEK1

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2009, 12:45:10 PM »

Also, they are supposed to be getting electro magnetic catapults, for the E2C's or what ever AWAC Aircraft they are having on them. lets see eh? H'mmm?
 Paul... :o
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2009, 09:46:25 PM »

It was the 'Bangsters' who emptied the kitty or have we been misled by the news media for the last 6 months.
Given the choice between new nuke subs or carriers I think the carriers might be more useful - air supremacy has been vital in our post war military actions and the future is'nt likely to be different.

Once the Cameronians auction our NHS and whatever other family silver the  Iron Lady & Co did'nt get the chance to sell off then who knows? - they might change their thinking.  O0 

The navy picture seems to me to be a composite of mis-scaled detail and this ship does'nt look like the last artist's impression of the carrier I saw some time ago. (It was much more conventional in layout) These new vtol planes I believe  use a large lift fan rather than vectored thrust jet nozzles so perhaps the ramp is harrier era.  {:-{ Let's hope the designers learn from past experience and get it right.  :-)
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2009, 10:00:14 PM »

I think there is some suggestion that the carriers may operate the conventional JSF rather than the vertical take off version. I don't know how well they will reproduce but I took the following pics at Plymouth Navy days earlier this month.

Colin
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Jimmy James

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2009, 11:54:05 PM »

We invented the carrier, we invented the catapult, we invented the ski ramp and we also invented the angled flight deck ---- so of course we shall get it wrong ---Not because we don't know how to do it ---But because some senior politicians will kowtow to the Yanks and drop their collective trousers and the Navy and the Country will get screwed again--- because the Yanks won't like the competition--- It happened with the TSR 2--the SR 177---The Jet engine --- Radar ---the list is endless --- until we get a government that is for this Country and the people in this country and not for Europe or how much money they can put in their own pockets things will never change --- I will shut up now, bolt on the storm shutters and battern down the hatches ....
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fooman2008

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 06:31:48 AM »

nother small problem ladies and gents....the JSF is probably on Robert Gates (SECDEF for the U.S.) hit list for being to expensive to fly.  So two huge new carriers, with no escorts, no crew, few ports (or drydocks) big enough to take them, and no aircraft.......I believe the phrase white elephant(s) comes to mind.
Foo
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 11:08:23 AM »

Quote
These new vtol planes I believe  use a large lift fan rather than vectored thrust jet nozzles so perhaps the ramp is harrier era.
It doesn't really matter what causes the vertical thrust, be it exhaust vectoring, a ducted fan, large rubber band or a rotor on the roof, any purely vertical take-off takes a huge amount of energy and swallows a lot of fuel whose weight translates into a reduced payload and/or a vastly reduced range.  The ski ramp allows a forward run to generate lift then angles the plane for best results.
There may well be a requirement on a ship this size for AWAC, In flight refuellers, ASW and resupply.  Helicopters might well not be adequate for the job.
Agreed with Fooman2008 about trusting major capital armed forces systems to any foreign power - what was that US stand-off missile called that we modified the V-bomber force to carry that was cancelled?
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swordfish fairey

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2010, 12:10:24 PM »

what was that US stand-off missile called that we modified the V-bomber force to carry that was cancelled?

Skybolt.....
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2010, 03:31:50 PM »


I could be a lot easier/cheaper to marinise  our new Typhoon  and redesign/optimise  the deck on our new big carrier to suit.
Given the costs involved - do we need a supersonic stealth/ vtol  interceptor/ground attack aircraft? The Americans are struggling to fund their Raptor programme and the vtol/js l is likely to be even more expensive.  :o
Our general  ineptitude in naval design has regularly failed to apply/learn the hard lessons of our past conflicts. Politicians have been  routinely blamed rather than the inadequate faceless naval  professionals who theorise/advise/plan and direct the design/building process. The Icelandic Cod/Falklands Wars exposed the considerable inadequacies of our designs to name but a few.
The Harrier has provided a very useful and relatively cheap source of naval sea power for our current 'big ships'. This new QE class should have plenty of deckspace for our new 'Top Gun'. :-)   
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fooman2008

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2010, 05:38:57 AM »

I'll throw this one out there and duck!  The British (RN) have invented more developments in aircraft carriers than any other country.  First deployed seaplane carriers.  First organized aircraft strike. Armored flight decks. Angled flight decks. Mirror landing system. Steam Catapult.  All these were firsts for the RN and then perfected/deployed extensively by other navies (most notably the USN).  Why did the RN fail to use/keep up with the developments?  Even right now the updates/upgrades for the latest marks for the Harrier were designed in the US for Boeing/M-D.
Foo
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Netleyned

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2010, 06:30:54 AM »

Money?  The FAA was always the poor relation
We even had to have aircraft turned down by the RAF eg Sea Vixen
We had the best brains but not the fattest wallets

Yours Aye

Ned

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fooman2008

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2010, 08:09:13 AM »

1) is there a fleet air arm that flies anything fixed wing?
2) F-35 will be hugely expensive and conspicuously all foreign contractors are being kept from making local versions
3) If you had the will to modify Typhoon for carrier service could you do so?  It only took two decades to make Typhoon even fly, then political threats from/to everyone involved to make them buy it (every country, EVERY country involved canceled their buy of typhoon at one time or another.
4) the ski jump works pretty good on almost any type of aircraft (the Russians use it and it flings MIG's into the sky pretty well, now if they can just figure out how to land them! LOL)
5)Unless the RN enjoys French, Dutch, German, Japanese (very, very unlikely) and, especially, United States Navy escorts why bother with the beast?  Why not build something you can afford, support, escort, build/rebuild, and most of all pay for?
6) I believe the French have a competitor for Charles Degaul in the ugliest carrier contest......
Foo
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Bryan Young

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Re: Wishful Thinking ?
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2010, 11:23:16 AM »

How much would the US charge us for one of their "off the production line carriers? BY.
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