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Author Topic: Navy's New Carriers  (Read 12764 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2009, 08:48:23 pm »

Not impressed with Margaret Thatcher I'm afraid.

1. She wanted to give in to the Argies but the Military Chiefs of Staff forcibly persuaded her otherwise.

2. It was the explicit policies of her Government which led the Argentinians to believe that they could get away with annexing the Falklands. Not just the withdrawal of HMS Endurance but also the diplomatic nuances at the time which suggested that Britain would be quite glad to get shot of the Islands.

Nul points for Maggie as far as I am concerned I'm afraid. Full marks and more for the military who succeeded against all the odds. Many, many minus points for John Nott, the incompetent accountant Defence Minister of the day who was a total plonker. Robin Day gave him his come uppance as a "here today, gone tomorrow" politician. Nott stormed out of the interview in protest.

A lot of good people died as a direct result of Governmental incompetence.

Colin
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gingyer

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2009, 09:02:08 pm »

A lot of good people died as a direct result of Governmental incompetence.


Nothing new then   :((
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allnightin

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2009, 10:17:51 pm »

Not impressed with Margaret Thatcher I'm afraid.

1. She wanted to give in to the Argies but the Military Chiefs of Staff forcibly persuaded her otherwise.



Colin,

I served afloat in the Falklands campaign and subsequently until retiring last year.  I have never heard that bit about Margaret Thatcher wavering before nor seen anything about it in the various books I have read except that initial period on the day of the invasion where Admiral Leach as First Sea Lord turned up in full uniform at Houses of Parliament (?) and told her that he could have a task force on its way the next week contradicting Nott and his advisers.  Once she was told that it could be done I understood that all systems were go as far as she was concerned.  My memories of that period are of endless surprises in what new kit and support had been arranged at every stage of the journey south and throughout the campaign - the way things are being handled now makes a very sorry contrast and I blame the political (non) leadership fully for this.

The mixed messages to the Argentinians about nationality and the scrapping of ENDURANCE of course were disgraceful as was the treatment of Captain BARKER of ENDURANCE who gave ample warning about the likely Argentinaian intentions but was cold shouldered by the Establishment even after the recapture of the Falklands.  While the PM holds the ultimate responsibility for that, there were plenty of other people in the system, military included, who must take a substantial part of the blame for letting things get that far.

On the future carriers, there are many shades of CVA01 in the current situation (see http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cva01.htm )  and you are left wondering if even one hull will be finished given the dire state of public finances.

Francis Macnaughton
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2009, 10:38:42 pm »

Francis,

It was indeed Henry Leach who gave Margaret Thatcher the assurance that the Falklands could be retaken. Without his intervention it seems likely that the Goverrnment would have acquiesced to a fait accompli. The credit for the successful outcome of the confliict belongs entirely to the military in my view.  Certainly Mrs Thatcher threw her weight behind the Task Force once she had been given the assurance that the job could be done but the fact remains that it was the government over which she presided that allowed the situation to develop. No doubt there were elements in the military who were indifferent at best to the fate of the islands but inter service squabbling is hardly new and is influencing the defence situation today.

I do rather suspect that subsequent governments have viewed the Falklands as an irritation with a couple of thousand civilians absorbing a significant chunk of the defence budget.

Gibraltar next?

Colin
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gingyer

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2009, 10:49:38 pm »

Colin
this government is spending quite alot down there
and if the falklands wants it, it gets it  :-))
no ifs, buts or maybes :o

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Bryan Young

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2009, 10:59:59 pm »

Not impressed with Margaret Thatcher I'm afraid.

1. She wanted to give in to the Argies but the Military Chiefs of Staff forcibly persuaded her otherwise.

2. It was the explicit policies of her Government which led the Argentinians to believe that they could get away with annexing the Falklands. Not just the withdrawal of HMS Endurance but also the diplomatic nuances at the time which suggested that Britain would be quite glad to get shot of the Islands.

Nul points for Maggie as far as I am concerned I'm afraid. Full marks and more for the military who succeeded against all the odds. Many, many minus points for John Nott, the incompetent accountant Defence Minister of the day who was a total plonker. Robin Day gave him his come uppance as a "here today, gone tomorrow" politician. Nott stormed out of the interview in protest.

A lot of good people died as a direct result of Governmental incompetence.

Colin
Being a bit selective there Colin. Two people (at least) who had Thatchers ear were Lord (?) Carlsle---who happened to own much of the Falklands industry, and the Vestey family. They who owned much ao Argentina and so much of the beef that came to the UK. Did it never strike you as a "bit odd" that the family would liquidate just before the Argentinian invasion? The whole thing still stinks. BY.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2009, 11:08:31 pm »

Quote
Colin
this government is spending quite alot down there
and if the falklands wants it, it gets it  
no ifs, buts or maybe

Oil drilling rights?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2009, 11:20:49 pm »

Bryan,

I certainly don't claim to be an expert but I wasn't aware that Vestey's had liquidated their Argentinian interests. Blue Star line continued long after the Falklands war I believe, although they had lots of other South American interests.

Falklands industry? i thought it was just sheep. Not exactly an economic powerhouse.

Colin
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snowwolflair

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2009, 11:31:11 pm »

Quote
The mixed messages to the Argentinians about nationality and the scrapping of ENDURANCE of course were disgraceful as was the treatment of Captain BARKER of ENDURANCE who gave ample warning about the likely Argentinaian intentions but was cold shouldered by the Establishment even after the recapture of the Falklands.

I would reccomend Captain Barkers book "Beyond Endurance" as the ultimate damnation of the Thatcher government of the day.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2009, 11:37:38 pm »

Quote
I would reccomend Captain Barkers book "Beyond Endurance" as the ultimate damnation of the Thatcher government of the day.

Not read that, I'll look out for it.

PS: Just read Captain Barker's obituary - impressive.

Colin
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Klunk

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2009, 03:16:29 pm »

I had some friends (Royal Marines) who were more worried that the ship carrying the Mars bars and the Beer would be sunk than actually fighting the Argies!
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Bryan Young

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2009, 04:53:15 pm »

Bryan,

I certainly don't claim to be an expert but I wasn't aware that Vestey's had liquidated their Argentinian interests. Blue Star line continued long after the Falklands war I believe, although they had lots of other South American interests.

Falklands industry? i thought it was just sheep. Not exactly an economic powerhouse.

Colin
A few years ago both the Panorama or possibly Depatches TV progs did an investigation into the activities of the Vestey family. Mainly about wealthy families avoiding UK tax. But the Argentinian aspect was well and truly investigated by the Sunday Times. As far as the Carlisle family was concerned I think they just wanted to be "out". I believe that it was their lack of investment and interest that could have pushed Thatcher into believing that the "locals" would go along with a change of sovereignty. Possibly unaware of the previous attempt in 1974 by the Argentinians to "regain" "their" islands. When whaling became a bit of a problem in the 1960s, Salvesons and others were quick to see which way the wind was blowing and just quit South Georgia. All of the above must have sent messages to the then Junta ruling Argentina. Sadly. The UK had had many years of friendliness with BA, and I hope that can be recovered. The present spats can be related to oil and fishing rights, but the UK maintains reasonable relationships with Spain in spite of the long running Gibraltar saga...this promises to be similar. Enough of a reply? Cheers. BY.
As a rider to the above, look at the ownership of "Blue Star", Dewhursts the butchers chain (Vestey) and you will see how much they off-loaded. Blue Star may have continued, but with somewhat different trade patterns.
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farrow

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2009, 08:02:15 am »

With reference to the Ammo dumps, they are all now tri-service with the Army the overall senior operator.
As to the Falklands, I know there was a lot of hurried planning and purchasing of equipment prior to the actual invasion, such as Uganda putting into Gib unexpectedly to her programme to be surveyed for conversion to a hospital boat 14 days before the invasion.
The RAF version of the Joint fstrike fighter is not due in service until the 2020's earlist, so where are the carriers strike wings!(so the Tornado GR4 will have to last abit longer) The last fixed wing carrier was scrapped after I believed the first steel was cut?
At the moment the MoD is absolutely brasic for money and is still very short of enlisted ratings.
The Ammo dump at Loch Long was saved because it is the only place in the UK which has an NEQ of 1,000'000kg's, so it is maintained as a Nato facility, otherwise it would have closed in the early 1990's, the next largest is Marchwood with 40,000kg's. The RN depot jetty's are considerably lower.
The new carriers would not be cancelled until after the next election as Rosyth is a major employer too close to Brown's consituency(call me cynical).
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farrow

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2009, 10:24:13 pm »

I think someone earlier in this thread hit on the point. Can the country truly try to carry on as a major world power, with all the real expense that this will incur. I think not I would rather spend the money on improving the common man's lot in this country and leave the job of world policeman to the Yanks. These carriers are going to be built and they will probably have to wait until aircraft are bought from somewhere and then a large fleet train will have to be built and operated to service them at great cost. That was why the original large flttops we had were got rid off, they where too expensive to run, it is not just fuel and ship spares, but replacement aircraft and crews plus support vessels.
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BarryM

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2009, 10:45:20 pm »

I doubt if you will ever see them on the ways.

Barry M
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2009, 11:03:12 pm »

I hope that the two carriers do get built and put the RN back where it deserves to be for the benefit of the Country.

As has recently been pointed out in the press, Afghanistan is essentially an anti insurgency operation against tribesmen with rifles and spades.

To assume that countering this is our primary defence consideration would be a grave mistake. A genuine "hot war" situation could arise at surprisingly short notice and it is essential that the country has the capability and hardware in place to respond to a threat of this nature.

Visiting the Plymouth Navy Days during the summer I went on board HMS Ocean, HMS Bulwark and the RFA Mounts Bay. These are all clearly very capable and versatile ships and in my view are an excellent investments for the taxpayer. They do need to be properly escorted though and 6 Daring class destroyers may not be enough.

The present government clearly has no proper understanding of its role in maintaining national security, hopefully the next one will be more on the balll - but don't hold yor breath.


Colin
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farrow

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2009, 09:50:57 am »

I believe that the problem with this government and previous, is not a lack of understanding of what would be required. But what can it financially afford, with dwindling income and having to keep the voters happy on other requirements of life so as to vote them back in. Also at the end of the day it is always the GI with rifle in his hands at close quarters which settles all conflicts, not very expensive exotic hardware.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2009, 05:34:39 pm »

I'm not too sure that the squaddy was the key factor in winning the Battle of the Atlantic! It was technology that won that one.
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justboatonic

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2009, 12:48:32 am »

Its highly unlikely both carriers will be built and even if they are, one will be in virtual reserve from launch. Put simply, the country cannot afford two huge carrier and the joint strike aircraft that will supposedly be flown from them.

At best it will be rob peter to pay paul approach with other parts of the services sufferring cutbacks to fund one operational carrier.

As a country, we simply cannot afford to run the forces we do and havent been able to for a long time.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2009, 10:02:26 am »

I don't think it's a question of affordability - more one of choices.

Over the last 12 years the Government, and Gordon Brown in particular, have preferred to squeeze defence spending in favour of massively boositing social programmes such as the NHS and Education.

As a result, the armed forces have suffered drastic cuts in operational capability. The problems have been made worse by procurement mismanagement by the MOD and by the stupid assumption that you can fight two significant wars within the confines of a peacetime defence budget that is already inadequate.

The level of defence spending should not be governed by what happens to be left in the kitty after everybody else has had a dip into it but on a reasoned assessment of risk over the next 25 years as far as this can be ascertained.

As was pointed out earlier this week in the press, we are concentrating our resources on methods of fighting tribesmen with rifles and fertiliser bombs at the expense of running down our conventional forces - no other country appears to be doing this. China, Russia, India etc. are all building up their conventional forces. What happens in 5-10 years time if we are confronted by a threat from an industrialised nation and simply have nothing but expertise to deal with fertiliser bombs  and the like to combat it? Dealing with insurgency isn't new, the UK was  fighting it in the Middle East between the wars.

The statement below summarises the position very well.

Colin

From: http://www.politics.co.uk/feature/foreign-policy/comment-what-nobody-will-admit-about-defence-spending-$1315270.htm

This brings me on to the second false premise on which the current debate is based: that we only need to prepare for threats which we can see coming. This relies on the ostrich-like position that what we cannot see or predict cannot hurt us. The ridiculousness of this position is borne out by a cursory look through history. As the report reminds us, nobody in 1981 expected to be fighting in the Falklands in 1982, nobody in 1989 expected to be fighting in Iraq in 1990, and nobody in 1914 expected to be fighting in Belgium (as opposed to France). The report aptly quotes General Sir Richard Dannatt's apposite observation that "the man who looks ten years out and says he knows what the strategic situation will look like is, frankly, the court jester". The threats that we face are not likely to be foreseeable. Deciding defence spending based on only foreseeable threats is a dangerous mistake.
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farrow

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2010, 11:56:09 am »

As said earlier, as with all individuals, we all have our perfect world of desires and wants, but in reality we only purchase what we can afford. The Chinese and Indian countries are the now rapidly rising future world economies, this country has been in decline since just after the beginning of the last century. The American economy is also peaking now, an that is what buys weaponry, i.e a strong economy. Also most of Europe has an industrial base compared to the UK, ours was allowed to die off in the mid 1970's.
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keef666

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2010, 01:52:16 pm »

A good debate going on here, I would like the new carriers to be build, even though like the new type 45's  will end up as a white elephants, at the time they are keeping some people in jobs, but i have heared the goverment wants to put the R.F.A in to private hands, if this happen's and works well! how long will it be before they put the Army, Navy and Airforce into private hands then don't need to have a defence budget anymore
  Keith
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Bryan Young

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2010, 05:34:22 pm »

I am led to believe that rather than "privatise" the RFA present thinking is just the reverse. It's quite possible that the RFA could be subsumed into the RN in the future. Not immediately, but foreseeable. I suppose that some of the reasons for this projected idea is the level of "militaryness" being built into the newer RFAs. In the past there were always good reasons to have the ships manned by civilians, be registered as "merchant ships" and so be able to enter foreign ports without the hassle of getting diplomatic clearance and all that sort of stuff. Everyone knew that this was a bit of a sham, but played along. As we do with the US MSC ships.
But of course there are many other considerations....the main one being that of cost effectiveness. In the past I would agree that the RFA was top-heavy on the Officer side, but things have changed over the last few years. More and more ratings and POs have been trained (at RN establishments) to do jobs that were once the preserve of the officer ranks. Now don't go and blame the officers for this state of affairs! It all came down to the way the RFA was developed. When I first joined the RFA most of the ratings were drawn from "the pool". No, they weren't all "scousers", it meant that they came from the Shipping Federation". A "pool" man was a seafarer who was not contracted to a particular shipping company and was therefore free to pick and choose (to a degree) which ship / company he would "sign on" with. Of course, many companies had their own "stock" of contracted personnel who were trained in the ways of their chosen company. An exception being Radio Officers, the vast majority of whom were employed by Marconi (but some were employed by Seimens). This meant that the R/Os were not trained in RN communications, so the ships had little in the way of "secret" or secure equipment. Once the RFA began training its own "communicators" things changed. More involvement in Fleet exercises became possible. So the Bridge staff had to be trained up to RN standards. But the ratings were basically left alone.
This did cause problems as can be imagined. Especially on the newer ammo ships and other specialised vessels (those with embarked flights for instance). But gradually the crews became more and more RFA orientated and together with the decline in the mainstream merchant navy a solid core of permanent employees came about.
I can only really speak for the deck department, but apart from the usual day to day "sailoring" type of work, many ratings became highly trained and very competent in other fields. So over the years this has ldeveloped into a more homogenous ships complement. But one thing stands out viv-a-vis the RN. The RFA personnel are (honestly) better at "multi-tasking" than their RN counterparts. This is partly due to the fact that most RFA personnel are life long professional seafarers, and not "in and out" in a few years. So the RFA gives a commitment and long term expertise. I'm not decrying the RN here, just stating a fact of life. But as "things" progressed and the RFA has become ever closer to the RN (many RFA people are now trained at Dartmouth alongside their RN counterparts) it's obvious that some sort of "co-joining" would be mooted.
Way back in 1991 "Fort Austin" was even visited by a group of Marks and Spencer executives with a view to them taking over some aspects of the supply-side of things. Came to nothing, really.
However. I would think that the big "sticking point" is the civilian status of the RFA personnel. If they had wanted to join the RN they would have done so. An RN manned RFA would have a much enlarged crew (multi-tasking again, for which they are not trained) and so probably more expensive to operate. There are quite evidently many problems in the pipeline, but as the RFA is now more or less absorbed into the mainstream UK Defence Forces I'm sure that a neat solution will be found. BY.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2010, 06:49:04 pm »

Some very good points there Bryan. When I visited the Plymouth Navy Days in September the dividing line between the capabilities of the RN Albion/Bulwark and Ocean amphibious ships and the RFA Bay class seemed to be very blurred in terms of operational capability. The Bay class are very impressive "warships" in their own right as the First Officer on the Largs Bay at Portsmouth last year was proud to inform me.

Colin
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Bryan Young

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Re: Navy's New Carriers
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2010, 07:05:25 pm »

Some very good points there Bryan. When i visited the Plymouth Navy Days in September the dividing line between the capabilities of the RN Albion/Bulwark and Ocean amphibious ships and the RFA Bay class seemed to be very blurred in terms of operational capability. The Bay class are very impressive "warships" in their own right as the First Officer on the Largs Bay at Portsmouth last year was proud to inform me.

Colin
Thanks Colin. In "my day" quite a few of us thought that the word "mercenary" would fit our position! But no harm in that. After all, it's what we signed up for. BY.
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