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Author Topic: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....  (Read 17106 times)

w3bby

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Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« on: November 18, 2009, 02:34:31 pm »

So it's official, Britain has been designated the "worst place to live in Europe"........ http://www.canada.com/life/Britain+worst+place+live+Europe/2096289/story.html?id=2096289

Report here http://www.uswitch.com/press-room/?downloadfile=UK-ENJOYS-HIGHEST-NET-INCOME-IN-EUROPE,-BUT-QUALITY-OF-LIFE-IS-POOREST

I'm not much better off here in Sweden either :(( :(( :(( third from last {:-{

Ron1

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2009, 03:34:26 pm »

I hope they all get the message, and stop coming here,Then we will all be better off .  O0 O0 <*< <*<
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a3nige

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2009, 04:49:11 pm »

Some questions I would like answers to :-

How many civil servants per 10,000 population?
How many police per 10,000 population?
How many doctors...................
Firemen............................


 :(( :(( :(( :(( :((
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2009, 05:29:24 pm »

And knowing the answers would prove what?
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a3nige

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2009, 05:42:43 pm »

And knowing the answers would prove what?

The relative cost of running our country compared to others!!!!

It would be interesting.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2009, 06:04:28 pm »

It would probably show you that France has far more police and government employees pro rata than the UK for a start but a lot of people hold the opinion that France is a better place to live than the UK, although others don't.

There is a report out today which suggests that the number of police officers has little correlation with crime rate detection levels, it's the effectiveness of the police force which is the important thing.

How do you define a Civil Servant? Somebody who works in the Civil Service? In which case what about the people who work in local government and for the various quangos? Do you include the Coastguards? Do you differentiate between the binmen who work directly for a local authority, those who have been outsourced to the private sector but still do the same job, and those who work for joint public private-partnerships? What about the people working for Network Rail which is essentially publicly funded? If all this isn't confusing enough, bear in mind that the same functions overseas are frequently organised in a very different way which makes direct comparisons very difficult. The French Gendarmes are more of a military organisation than a police one with police functions split between them and local police.

So, simple comparisons will be almost meaningless although the newspapers are quite happy to make headlines from them. You have to get down deep and dirty before you can derive any meaningful conclusions.

Colin
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2009, 07:07:31 pm »


So, simple comparisons will be almost meaningless although the newspapers are quite happy to make headlines from them. You have to get down deep and dirty before you can derive any meaningful conclusions.

Colin


What makes it worse is that, compared with 50 years ago, there are no truly independent providers of figures, so you have to do quite a bit of work before you can start to rely on ANY data.

It ought, however, to be possible to get a figure for total money taken in all forms of 'government income' (tax and the rest), total borrowed, and total left (if any) at the end of each year. It ought to be mandatory to present those simple figures to the voting population each year.

Though clever tricks like the Public Finance Initiative (where companies are given contracts to run government services and try to make a profit on them) will confuse matters. If a government-owned PFI railway takes 10m from the passengers, spends 8m to run it, pays the government 1m and takes a profit of 2m, is that a government tax of 10m, 1m or some other figure?

The real fun comes when you compare the Armed forces. We have 41 Admirals, Rear-Admirals and Vice-Admirals in the Navy, and only 40 fighting ships! See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/defence/3073680/Admirals-outnumber-warships-in-Royal-Navy-report-shows.html




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The long Build

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2009, 07:38:47 pm »

This Video Probably sums up the article in the Telegraph.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6h8i8wrajA
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 07:47:13 pm »

That Telegraph article is a good example of the confusion. Bulwark, Albion and Ocean are certainly major warships and the larger naval shore bases have Admirals in command so while there may indeed be too many admirals, to relate 41 admirals to 40 fighting ships doesn't actually mean very much.

And of course the PFI is a sleight of hand initiative intended to take public spending off the balance sheet when in fact the detail of the contracts mean that it is very poor value for money over the long term. Those of us who worked in the public sector clearly recognised at the time that it was a political fiddle but of course nobody wanted to listen.

I spent almost all of my career in the public sector but spent a lot of time dealing with the private sector when many services were outsourced in the interests of "efficiency". Whilst the public sector was certainly not without blame, the private sector doesn't come out of it smelling of roses either, being focused on maximising income at the expense of service standards and actually in a better position to disguise its own inefficiencies whereas the public sector was subjected to more transparent scrutiny and high profile criticism. The construction related companies we dealt with were used to dealing with Middle East clients where the fee related cashflows were of a different order of magnitude altogether compared with the paltry sums we had to offer. Some hard lessons were learned on both sides.

Colin

 
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Roger in France

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2009, 07:35:10 am »

Just something to add about international comparisons.

It would be very difficult to compare some public services, country by country.

For example, the French Police force performs a number of functions which the British Police Force does not and vice versa. In France they deal with a wide range of licensing carried out by local authorities in the UK. In the UK the Police escort abnormal loads, in France it is largely done by private contractors. There is no crime prevention function in France.

There is no national ambulance service or paramedic service in France, it is provided by the Fire Service.

There is no independent, government inspection of commercial weights and measures in France, it is done by the petrol pump installation companies and the weighing equipment manufacturer.

These examples just occurred to me as a result of things I was thinking about yesterday, some are insignificant.

I could give many, many examples. These things are not wrong they are just different. It is all about culture and history.

As to living in France as opposed to the UK. It clearly fits with some and not others. I am fully integrated but I know several English folk living in France who avoid any involvement with French life as far as they can and attempt to create a "mini-UK", taking what they can from the French and giving little or nothing back.

France is a highly centralised state with most things controlled by Paris, local government is a mere shadow of the British system. The supervision of the French population by central government would shock most British citizens. Central government here still has a palpable fear of revolution, for instance most Gendarmeries are fortified and some have armoured vehicles. The purpose of the French police is to control not to serve.

Roger in France
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ajb68

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2009, 08:44:20 am »

Best or Worst im proud to be British  :-))1
Regards Andy
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funtimefrankie

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2009, 09:22:06 am »

There's no where else I'd want to live.
I sometime think I'd like to live down south in Cheshire, but then I wake up..... :-))
Take the dog on the beach/sandhills and all is well again.
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polobeer

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2009, 09:57:00 am »

The UK is a fantastic country. It probably has the greatest variety of beautiful countryside than any other country in Europe in relation to its size. The "bad" weather is often cited as one of the country's negative aspects. However, without the heavy rain and cooler conditions we wouldn't have such lovely vegetation and scenery; in west Wales for example, the plant life is exquisite all year round. British people are some of the most tolerant and polite in the World and very inventive. Also, contrary to what the media would have us believe (about CCTV cameras, etc), the UK is still a very free country. Of course this is all very subjective and loads will disagree with me, but the UK is a fine country and always will be. I've spent plenty of time in France which is also a very nice country, in different ways, but I'd rather reside in Britain, regardless of the better weather, etc. The people who produce these statistics live on another planet in the Euro zone and probably have zero experience of life in the countries they dismiss. In reality though it is impossible to define what makes one European country better to live in than another because the defining characteristics will always have its supporters and dissenters.

Therefore, as my statement above shows quite clearly, the subject is very personal by and large.

 {:-{
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Wasyl

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2009, 10:44:12 am »

I,was born in Scotland in 1950 and can honestly say that my childhood in the 50,s,and 60,s,was very happy,children respected their elders unlike today,neighbours looked out for each other,whole tenement blocks,were like one big happy family,unlike today where people can live next door to one another for years,and not know they are there,If an adult chastised a child not of his/her own in public for doing something they should,nt have been doing,they were applauded for it,unlike today,where you,re more than likely to be reported for being something you,re not,
Where we stayed in Scotland people rarely locked there doors,because everyone new everone else,we looked out for each other and in many parts of the UK this was the norm,..But over the years I,like a lot of others on here that are my age and older,have seen a mass deterioration of this way of life,
We may still be known as a friendly nation, but to whom are we friendly,??
I have visited almost every country in Europe and have lived and worked in two of them Germany/France,and i can honestly say,I found the Germans and the French to be more tolerant of us than we are to them,
I always had the belief that i would live and die in "Gods Country,....just the way i see it,but over the past ten years or so that belief has been diminished,and i have been for some time now seriously considering a move to Germany,...where,the old beliefs are still in existence,and people look out for one another,and their old people are looked after in the way ours used to be,
And Scottish people are not looked upon as if they came from another planet,

Wullie
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dreadnought72

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2009, 10:55:59 am »

Wasyl, in my fifteen years in Scotland I'm still looked on by some of the locals as having come from a different planet.

...I was born in Cumbria.  %%

Andy
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Wasyl

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2009, 01:10:39 pm »

Some of the weirdest people i know  come from Cumbria,weird but very likeable,one in Flimby,and  then there,s Elvis  %% {-)from near Whitehaven,


Wullie
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polobeer

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2009, 01:16:46 pm »

I notice that it is a Canadian website reporting about this apparent "dreadful" place to live (i.e. the UK). Is this laughable or what?  {-) {-) {-)

Why do the refugees in Sangatte want to come to the UK even to the extent of risking their lives in the Channel Tunnel, etc? They don't want to stay in France, and France pays much higher social security than the UK. In theory they could choose to settle in any EU country. Strange isn't it?

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Wasyl

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 03:11:19 pm »

Hi Simon,one of the many reasons why the UK is the Mecca,for all these refugees,is ,its easier for them to, get benefits,.or .drop off the radar,...or learn the universal language,
In the 70,s when all those Boat people were headed for Europe, the Germans took thousands in,but they did not allow them to just wander where the need took them,The Germans had a strict code of conduct,i.e.these refugees had to learn the German way of life,they had to learn German,they were forbidden to take a job,if it meant a German  not having one They did not get benefits thrown at them,unlike here,
Up here in Scotland there has been over the past five years a mass influx of East Europeans, namely Poles,and Czechs,and the benefits they get,beggers belief,
e.g. take one Polish couple, with say 2 children below the age of 16,The children reside in Poland whilst their parents live in Tayside,The husband works in the Farming industry, the wife stays at home,They are allowed to claim child benefit for the two children.even although said,children are in Poland,now that to me, is Nuts,Furthermore if said Pole/Czech decides to bring his/her car over here,They are not law bound to register said car with Swansea,In Tayside last year,there was over 150,000 of unpaid parking tickets,dished out to Polish/Czech nationals and a large percentage of them don,t have car tax and in some cases No insurance,
that is why they all want to come here,.."free housing,medical care,schooling,..there was even an article in the paper recently where itsaid that Tesco,s had foreign nationals working for them,and Tesco,s were paying them to go to night classes in order they learn English,

Britains too soft,

Wullie
 
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2009, 03:40:32 pm »

Having now spent the last five weeks living in a small German town and previously living for two years in Northern Italy as well as working in the United States for the past 12 years I think I can see where some of this maybe coming from.

Having seen the UK change over the last fifty years one thing that has become apparent to me is the changeing attitude of people.  I think as a country we are becoming more and more selfish and insular and driven more and more by materialistic things than we ever have been in history.  We now seem to think we have a right to everything rather than having to work for it and this selfish attitude is slowly permeating into everything else we do.  There are more and more single parent families than ever before as young parents demand more and more for themselves rather than sacrificing things for the family and more and more kids are being brought up by nursing groups because parents have a right to work which they only need to do to be able to buy the items we never dreamed of years ago.  Nowadays every member of the family has a car, which is why our roads are blocked and we don't seem to be able to either put together the infrastructure or get people to travel on public transport.  Everyone has a'right' to thier own car.  To be honest hearing about peoples 'rights' is all you get nowadays and seems to be a means of covering over the fact that greed and selfishness drives so much of what we do.  Supermarkets thrive because everyone wants the convenience of them, we kid ourselves that they are cheap when they aren't as a means of justifying the fact that we ue them and we are driven into a situation where the supermarket giants now control what we buy as well as the prices they decide to pay the farmers.  We see less and less socialising and more and more drink related problems and I'm increasingly concerned about being out late at night in town on my own, and that's in the car!

From what I can see of the european contries they still put far more emphasis on the family unit.  They eat together, they socialise together and they have a responsibility for the community.  In the five weeks I've been here I have seen examples of community activities that seem to be dissapearring in the UK and in Italy in the evening people simply walk around the town centres and talk with each other.  Food is bought more in local farmers markets rather than supermarkets, which, although here are nowhere near as powerful as the giants in the UK.  Food is fresher, seasonal and local because that's what is important here.

I think like it or not we have spent too many years following the American ideal, which is driven purely by selfish greed and open market forces, rather than the good of each other and the quality of our lives.  The Americans are now seeing the results of this culture coming home to roost as corporate giants grash and the corupt banking system teeters on the edge.  We are getting more and more like America as time goes on and less and less like our european allies and it is now starting to show.  We don't do anything for each other, we are rude in public we drink to excess and we invent new ways of displaying rage each year.  I'm not so sure just how proud I am of being British anymore but I am convinced that european countries still seem to be able to have a much better quality of life than we do and that is nothing to do with how much money people have or feel they have a right to.  In the last five weeks everyone I have met has been polite and well mannered and more than happy to go out of thier way to do what they can for you.  They are obviously proud of thier town and they look after it and I feel completely safe walking about on my own at night.

As for the Canadians thinking the UK is a dreadful place to live being laughable, I can only feel sadness that they see us that way.  No matter what arguments you may come up with for how materialistically better or worse it is in the UK I am now more convinced than ever that the quality of life is better in other european countries and that simply makes me sad.  

The eastern european imigrants wanting to live in the UK is simple, it's not the amount of money that is relevent to them, it's the ease in which they can obtain it.  All other european countries have far stricter controls over their handout systems, which is why they are so desperate to be in the UK.  Here they get medical care for thier families, handouts to cover everything and all the work they want because the locals see the work as beneath them.  The local businesses are glad they can find someone to do the work and the government are trying to kid us what a wonderful diverse society we are creating. All the money we pay these people is being taken out of the UK to support thier economies at home and most of them don't even pay taxes.  They do however use our hospitals, police forces and other ameneties which we continue to pay for and which continue to strive to look for more and more ways of making economies because they can't afford to keep to thier budgets.
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FullLeatherJacket

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2009, 03:51:27 pm »

Mr Wasyl

Presumably the Polish/Czech national working in the UK farming industry is paying UK tax? There are estates in this area where the majority have never worked or paid tax and yet happily claim benefit - and every single one of them is a UK-born citizen.

No car imported into the UK can remain here legally for more than six months without being registered.

20% of drivers on the roads have no valid tax or insurance - do you imagine they are all Polish or Czech nationals?

The value quoted for unpaid parking tickets in Tayside pales into insignificance compared with those issued in Inner London to foreign diplomats.......or white-van men almost anywhere.

I'm sure that Tesco would prefer to employ people without the extra expense of having to pay for them to be taught English - but if the indigenous population is too lazy to work or too comfortable claiming benefits then Tesco don't seem to have much of a choice, do they?

At what stage did the various foreign invaders who settled in the UK and spawned our ancestors stop being "immigrants", "boat people" or "refugees"? Was it simply when they became the majority and began to refer to more recent and less fortunate incomers than themselves in those same derogatory terms?

Canada is fine if you like trees......................



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polobeer

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2009, 04:32:09 pm »

The fact that the UK is prepared to accept so many refugees is one of the reasons it is a good country. Like it or not, the fact remains that if "you" were a refugee seeking sanctuary or wanted to make a better life for "yourself" (as a British person) how many countries would allow "you" in and integrate "you" into their society with relative ease? Put "yourself" into a refugee's shoes; it must be hell for loads of them. Many former refugees become fully integrated into British society and bring countless skills, and benefit their local communities in numerous ways. The notion that they are all on the scrounge and after an easy ride is totally ridiculous - where is the hard evidence to back up this myth? And finally, Britain is great because of its multi-cultural society.

 %)
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ajb68

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2009, 05:42:36 pm »

A bit off topic i know but i was mate on a beam trawler out of Brixham and we went through a lot of deckhands and though i hate to say it the native "englishmen" couldnt or didnt want to do the work ! i mean it wasnt rocket science just pick out the scallops then shovel the rest overboard . after crew problems cost us too many days at see the skipper crewed the deck with polish guys and boy did these guys work ! never any word of complaint (well none that i could understand) if people from other countries wish to come here to work its only because a lot of the younger generation are workshy and the men and women who come here want to work , when was the last time you went to hospital ? many of these very skilled positions are filled by people from other countries and when it comes too the lesser skilled jobs on the whole they arent afraid to get there hands dirty !!

Andy
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kiwi

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2009, 06:08:07 pm »

Hi Bunkerbarge,
Your perceptions are spot-on, and not just for the UK.
I'm from NZ, and like you, have lived worked and travelled extensively. Upon returning to NZ to live and work a couple of years ago, I have found exactly the same attitides and situation here. Most saddening, to see ones own country going down the tubes, and all because of materialistic greed - usa style.
kiwi
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Turbulent

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2009, 06:27:45 pm »

Best or Worst im proud to be British  :-))1
Regards Andy

I'm Proud to be English mate.  :-))

DickyD

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Re: Apologies to all those residing in the UK.....
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2009, 06:32:59 pm »

Kiwi, my family all live in Wellsford North Island and would my medical condition allow it, myself and my good lady would move there tomorrow. Dont  knock your country , its great. :-))
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