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Author Topic: Working guns for model boats  (Read 9667 times)

steve pickstock

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Working guns for model boats
« on: December 06, 2009, 11:54:29 AM »

Just a suggestion - rather that CO2 or paintball cylinders - why not have a look at some of the electric powered airsoft kit on the market. The VCRA act hasn't reduced the kit that is available and there are some electric pistols that might be suitable. This is quite a useful website as they do internals as well as complete guns.  Action Hobbies
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 12:06:44 PM »

Can a Airsoft gun fire steel BB's?
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Mark47

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 12:41:09 PM »

I keep looking at this 68ci fiber wrap paintball cylinder and thinking that I should be using it for the gun instead of the CO2 bulbs, I've definitely got the space for it but I would need to try and make a low friction seal which will rotate easily.
I think that a fixed hose would restrict the guns rotational movement, I would definitely get a lot more shots before the vessel gets so cold that the power noticeably drops off.

It would be a simple addition so something that I should think about when doing the bulkhead designs.....

Have you thought of this------ http://www.store.justpaintball.co.uk/air-co2/coil-remote-hose.html

I use one for paintball for freedom of movement.
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 12:46:09 PM »

I had considered airsoft but the power is nothing like what I wanted, if you put a steel 6mm bb in an airsoft gun it would go about 2 metres!

I'm using 800psi.. There is quite a difference to a motor spring and plunger..

There is also an issue with space, to get the full movement required using airsoft guts you would need a much bigger turret.

I don't doubt it's possible but you would be limited to a low rate of fire and fixed shot power.
With the valve system you can difine the power and rate of fire.. I have it down to 5.5 shots per second
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2009, 12:48:14 PM »

Thanks, I will check it out..

Perhaps we should start a separate thread about firing guns so as to not detract too much on this one of the build.
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Niall

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009, 02:26:13 PM »

Airsoft guns shoot far further and more accurately than their muzzle energy would suggest.

This is because the breech(Called a "hop-up" unit for some reason) grips the BB(Ball Bullet NOT Ball Bearing for airsoft guns) at the top, so when fired it has a back spin. This back spin provides aerodynamic lift so it has a flat trajectory for most of its flight.

For example one of the electric pistols available from the link supplied above will shoot a .2g BB 30-40 metres with very little elevation even though it only has a muzzle velocity of 205-210 feet per second.
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009, 06:36:35 PM »

I see what you are saying, the mini mk111 fires a 4.5mm steel bb more than 200 metres.. I don't think the rubber hop up bumper would put enough spin on a steel 6mm bb as the kenetic energy required to spin I sufficiently would all be lost when it hit the hopup..
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2009, 06:41:55 PM »

If you order some 6mm steel bb's you could try it, the difference in mass between steel and abs is quite significant..

Quite a bit of energy is transfered to the spin on a hopup and as the abs bb is very light and the surface finish is course in comparison quite a bit of lift is achieved, you could calculate what would be required to do the same thing with a steel bb.. It would probably be close in power to weight difference between the two..

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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:39 PM »

I'm not totally sure about the title of this thread as you can have gas, spring and motor fired airsoft. The 'CO2' gun can also work with any pressurised gas including air and helium... Perhaps the title should be 'Working guns'?

Anyway, I have ordered an electric airsoft gun (a mini uzi) to see if the parts could in some way be used in a boat gun, I expect the level of engineering required would be much less. Perhaps some other people could try and get something working, we could set up paper targets on the side of the boat and have real battles with warships!
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 05:37:39 PM »

Topic renamed.
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Niall

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Re: Airsoft v CO2
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 06:00:19 PM »

Some notes on Airsoft guns -

There are 2 classes of guns sold under the airsoft name.

The cheaper ones are packaged with 0.12g BB and have a muzzle energy under 0.5j(0.37ft/lb). These are poorly made and are little more than toys.

The others are packaged with 0.2g/0.25g BB and are much better made and will have a muzzle energy of 0.8j or higher. it is also possible to get spare and upgraded internal and external parts.

As to power source. Airsoft guns are either gas or electric.

Most gas guns use canned gas sold specifically for the purpose(These are refridgrant gases, or propane, with added lubricants). Some new models use C02. Most of these have a gas reservoir in the gun's magazine behind the feed "tube" of BB. When fired the gas works the action to fire the shot and reload the next. They have to be manually cocked before the first shot is fired. If the real gun can fire full auto so can the airsoft version. The main drawback of gas guns is they do not work reliably below 12-15 degrees C.

Electric guns; called "AEG's" by the airsoft community, are cocked and fired by an electric motor powered by a rechargeable battery pack. With the exception of the electric pistols, MP7 and MAC10 all use Tamiya or deans connector to connect to the battery.

On magazines there are several types of AEG magazines -
Real Capacity(Realcap) - This hold the same number of BB as the real gun holds bullets
Standard Mag - These are only sold by Tokyo Marui - They hold approximately twice as many BB as a Reacap mag.
Mid Capacity(Midcap) - These hold approximately twice as many BB as a standard mag.
High Capacity(Hicap) - These use a hopper and clockwork mechanism and hold 10 or more times the BB as a realcap.

Tracer Unit And Tracer Ammo
A tracer unit has a UV LED, either in a silencer on the barrel or on the magazine feed tube. Tracer ammunition glows in the dark when fired through a tracer unit.

In the UK, since 1/10/2007 unless a registered member of an airsoft site or reenactment society you can only buy two tone coloured or clear plastic bodied airsoft guns.

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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 11:24:48 PM »

I have two manualy cocked spring/plunger Airsoft pistols, one I built (when they came in kits in the 90's 91 I think) and one which was pre-built. I also had an L85A1 which was also spring/plunger.
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2009, 12:26:56 AM »

I'm suprised that you can still get some many spring powered types, here are the three types of airsoft gun types for pistols.

http://www.airgundepot.com/pistolairsoft.html
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2009, 12:36:09 AM »

Does anyone know what the fps would be on an airsoft gun firing 0.2g BB if the barrel was 102mm long?

The 4.5mm Steel BB's are 0.35g so it's shouldn't be too hard to calculate the difference if someone could chrono a sawnoff airsoft.
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Niall

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2009, 10:42:05 AM »

On electric airsoft guns the barrel length has very little impact on muzzle velocity.

On gas guns the longer the barrel the higher the muzzle velocity assuming nothing else is changed internally. Foe example the KJ works mk23 SOCOM pistol has a muzzle velocity of around 300fps, this jumps to over 400 iif the silencer supplied with it is used as this effectively doubles the barel length, whereas the WE Luger has about the same muzzle velocity on the standard 4" and Navy and Artillery versions.

I've not seen the airsoft guns in the link you provided. Most of then seem to be at the cheaper, low quality end of the airsoft market. Any electric pistol Ive seen under 50 have a muzzle velocity of around 150fps.
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2009, 10:57:23 AM »

Do you then think motor driven is viable, are there any which have the working parts perpendicular to the barrel (so it could fit in the center of the Barbette).
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Niall

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2009, 12:56:16 PM »

The electric pistols like the one in the link below have the gearbox in the pistol grip -

Link removed at Action Hobbies request!?! - Admin

This link is form a site which discusses the fitting of upgrade parts, it has photos of the gearbox out of the gun alongside a ruler -

http://www.airsofthawaii.org/ballistic/200507/g18pdi.shtml
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 06:47:55 PM »

Have there been any Airsoft turret developments?

I thought that I had forgotten to tick the 'Notify me of replies' box but there haven't been any posts, I must therefore assume that my interest in such a concept is some type of mental condition and as a result I must perscribe myself some carnage and destruction of RTR craft by way of projectile penetration and structural compromisation through rapidly expanding gases!

I'm not sure that self certification is a viable remedy, but it's working for me.


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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 08:10:30 PM »


Have there been any Airsoft turret developments?


I'm going to make one, sort of for my next Springer, based on a DE Mini Uzi Electric Airsoft BB Gun
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2009, 09:30:05 PM »

Awesome, and it keeps me from being committed to a mental institution at the same time. I had ordered a mini Uzi but I checked the site an it's still in the cart, I will leave it with you as I have more than my hands full on the Hamina build.

P.S. Please can we get the word 'Hamina' added to the spell checker?
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2009, 10:16:22 PM »

Doesn't seem to be working for me.
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Niall

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2009, 11:45:00 PM »

The only airsoft turrets I have seen are those on RC model tanks -
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15663.0

There is also this -
http://unconventional-airsoft.com/2003/11/16/an-automated-motion-sensing-airsoft-gun-turret/

These are at the low power end of airsoft, capable of firing only 0.12g BB.

A video of the tracer unit and BB -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X-VHIXRC0g
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J.beazley

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2010, 05:41:04 PM »

Being a registered member of UKARA and owning severall airsoft guns myself this topic is VERY interesting.

I for one have toyed with the idea of making a gun turret with the use of a Airsoft gearbox for my battleship so that its fully working but most of the gearbox's that are used in mainstream airsoft are far too big including the AEP pistol gearboxs which are still large to mount under a turret.

I do however have a vast knowledge of Airsoft gearbox's and mechanical what nots to make this work but not having the time or money to do so puts a damper on it some what.

If anyone wants to give this sort of thing a go i can list several retailers that offer cheap parts.

Jay
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If it floats I'll  build it, if it sinks its a sub either way its in the water so I'm content.

Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2010, 06:58:37 PM »

Here is a montage of the old guns from my Capitani Romani Class light cruiser.
The boat and guns were built in 1995, the guns were replaced around 2000, then
I later sold the boat and set up in 2003...

Some of the  parts are  stock air components from Clippard Minimatic.
The magazine tray, loaders, and valves all sit in the base of the hull.
Only the stainless steel barrels came up through the deck and into the turret.

 :-)
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Harrison

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Re: Working guns for model boats
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2010, 08:30:53 AM »

Great work, it's nice to see that someone else has been developing scale firing guns for their boats.
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