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Author Topic: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug  (Read 8476 times)

Shipmate60

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How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« on: December 08, 2009, 10:55:30 pm »

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tobyker

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2009, 11:21:30 pm »

Almost unbelievable. I hope the OOW was cashiered for it. The sub should have gone astern long before the tug got anywhere near the afterplane.
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2009, 11:36:29 pm »

It appears that the tug lost power, you hear a load siren just before the tug starts to go down the side of the sub. Also you just don't stop a sub that is 560 feet long that fast. On the stern planes of an Ohio class sub there are vertical uprights that house sonar gear in them, this is what may have punctured the hull of the tug. I can see what the Co of the sub was trying to do was to get the stern out and away from the tug to keep the tug from hitting the upwrights on the sub.

Duane
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Shipmate60

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 11:58:34 pm »

Duane,
If you look at her exhaust you will see by the exhaust that she was on max overload, not lost power.
It seems she hung up on 1 of the planes below the waterline.
All stop on sub and tug is usual or even 1/2 astern on the sub.
Attempt to stop and then sort out the situation.

How do I know? Ex Engineer on Tugs that regularly moved nuclear subs about.

Bob
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2009, 10:01:40 pm »

Yes, but if you listen closely you will hear an alarm whsitle going off and then one member on the tug runs down the port side and into the aft end of the deck house and then followed by the tug going astern on the sub quickly. This is why I came to the conclusion of loss of power on the tug, in which they got power back up quick but not fast enough this to me is why there was a large amount of smoke blowing from the stack. Also on the stern planes of the sub there are vertical uprights as one may put it this is what punctured the hull of the sub. Just my thoughts.

Duane
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2009, 10:11:56 pm »

Just found this on another sight. www.navysite.de/ssbn/ssbn729.htm

USS SECOTA (YTM 415) loses power and collides with the stern planes of USS GEORGIA and sinks just after completing a personnel transfer. Ten crew are rescued, but two drown. GEORGIA is undamaged.

Duane
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Shipmate60

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2009, 10:26:28 pm »

Yes you hear the alarm at 0:36 into the video.
Main engine exhaust on at 2:06 with the tug not hung up on aft planes yet.
If the sub reduced speed the tragedy could have been avoided.
The only avoiding action of the sub was  to steer to stbd.
Too little too late.

Bob
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Colin Bishop

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2009, 10:57:36 pm »

Dreadful to hear that two of the tug crew didn't make it.

What surprised me is just how quicklly the tug went down. The hull must have been ripped apart.

Colin
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Shipmate60

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2009, 11:08:58 pm »

Colin,
Most tugs work with Engine Room skylights open.
Doors open.
This can be seen as a crew member rushes to the aft superstructure to enter.
 Once the bow rises the stern sinks and it doesnt take long to take on enough water to sink her.
As the sub sustained no damage her prop could not have cut the hull.

Bob
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2009, 12:44:47 am »

Here is a link that will show a cut away view of an Ohio class SSBN that will also show what is on the stern planes that would have punctured the hull of the tug.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/const/anatomy/boomers/cutaway.html

Duane
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Turbulent

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 09:00:47 pm »

And if the planes dont get you, the blender on the stern probably will.

Why is it always Yanks?

The long Build

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 10:54:06 pm »

And if the planes dont get you, the blender on the stern probably will.

Why is it always Yanks?

They have more ships ! :}
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 10:56:37 pm »

Now wait a minute there! How about when the Queen Mary sliced her Britt cruiser in half that was escorting her to port. I saw this one last night on National Geographic last night.

Duane
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ajb68

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2009, 12:17:32 pm »

They have more ships ! :}

Just as well if that was anything to go by  O0

Andy
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meyer

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2009, 01:09:42 pm »

Quote
Now wait a minute there! How about when the Queen Mary sliced her Britt cruiser in half that was escorting her to port. I saw this one last night on National Geographic last night.

Duane

not sure what your getting at here,
The QM incident was in a time of war both vessels following zigzag patterns and one of them got it wrong subsequent enquiry split the blame between the Admiralty and Cunard it had nothing to do with bad seaman ship just bad judgement in a very grey area which led the suspension of escorts for fast passenger liners
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2009, 01:41:41 pm »

From what They said on the show is that both captains thought that the other had to give way to the other, Also the QM had a faster speed than her escort inwhich the escort had to steam in staright lines inorder to keep up with the QM. If so why did the escort cut across the bow of the faster ship that was doing zig zags? Yes maybe bad decision by both captains, but this is also the same by the sub captain maybe, even if he tried to stop the sub the tug would have still ended up on the stern planes still. At a speed of 6 knots it takes an SSBN at least one full lenght of the sud to stop, which is about the speed that they were doing during the transfer. So in this case there is realy no proceedure that says you must do this if this happens.

Duane
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Shipmate60

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2009, 10:17:06 pm »

Sorry Duane.
GOOD SEAMANSHIP should dictate the course of action.
If all stopped then it is unlikely that the tug would have foundered.
Usually an accident has more than 1 cause as in this case.
As to the stern planes opening the tug hull. That is extremely unlikely as the tug will have double bottoms.
EG Fuel and ballast tanks above the keel.
As the sub didn't sustain damage to her plane(s) it is extremely unlikely that this would be the cause.
I would suggest the main cause was bad communication between tug/sub and a very slow reaction from the sub.

Bob
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farrow

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2009, 10:58:18 pm »

Having worked with subs, mainly with twin screws. Transfers with all RN subs on the move is done on the forward diving plane, so that you could steam in the same direction as the sub and veer away. You would never normally go along side of a moving sub, as when you would normally increase speed veer off, your screws with a sub will make contact. The sucksion of the subs screw can pull you in and also when you back off, the tug has to stop and twist it's stern out and so it will move down the hull as the sub moves ahead. I was in a similar postion many years ago when a dog I was on had a M/E failure and I had to get off a moving sub on one screw, not to be reccommended.
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2009, 11:31:42 pm »

The way the transfer was done there is the way we always did it when I was in the US Navy. Also lets don't forget just cuase they said there was no damage to the sub doesn't mean that the vertical section of the stern did not make contact with the tugs hull and out a gash into the hull, remember this tug was built back at the end of WW II they didn't build double hull any thing back then. Also remember when the fast attack sub off the coast of Hawaii sunk that japanese school boat and it sunk. The rudder of the tug ripped across the bottom of that small ship and made a large gash in the bottom of it and it sunk quickly as well, and again there was no damage done to the rudder other than the removale of the stern light and a little damage was done to the sail area of that sub. So in my opion is yes the vertical section of the stern planes on the SSBN could have riped through the hull of the tug and did not sustain any damage to it.

Duane
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 01:27:29 am »

thaught here.

the prop disc of an ohio is HUGE, some 30 to 40ft across judging by the schemeatic, now the stern plane upright is a small contact ara, and may act like a knife, if the tug swung into part of the subs prop disc, that would also put a second hole in there.  that may point as to why she went down so quick, two of her 3 compartments compromised
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farrow

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 09:53:13 pm »

Well in the UK you would not do a transfer to a moving sub with a screw vessel. As you need to steam at the same speed as the sub, then veer off the sub by steering away from the sub which can bring the screws into contact with the subs hull. As the subs hull is wider under the waterline than at the surface. Yes the tug sunk because most either the screw ripped through the hull by the engine room or the aft fins ripped her open. The major space in a tug is the engine room and when that floods goodbye tug.
The sub appears to getting underway with the tug still alongside, I would say the tug did not stand much chance and in this country the person I/C of the sub would be held accountable.
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meyer

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 10:43:55 pm »

Looking at the video I would say that 3 water tight doors being dogged open didnt help
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Navy2000

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 11:39:57 pm »

On An Ohio class sub the hull is 42 feet in dia if my mind remembers correctly and the prop/ wheel is only 16 feet in dia which puts it about with the total width of the stern planes about 16 feet from the stern planes edge to the prop tips.

Duane
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 11:51:16 pm »

On An Ohio class sub the hull is 42 feet in dia if my mind remembers correctly and the prop/ wheel is only 16 feet in dia which puts it about with the total width of the stern planes about 16 feet from the stern planes edge to the prop tips.

Duane


judging by the angle the tug got, im sure the prop may have taken a bite
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Colin Bishop

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Re: How NOT to assist a sub with a tug
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 11:52:39 pm »

Looking at the video It seemed to me that the tug was bouncing up and down on the vertical after hydroplane extension - and probably eviscerating iitself in the process.

Colin
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