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Author Topic: There's no one out there!  (Read 57878 times)

justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #125 on: December 22, 2009, 12:34:47 AM »

Consider the number of billion to one coincidences that have got the Earth and us to where we are.
The planet is at exactly the right distance from the right kind of star.
Early in the planets existence we gained a very large satellite.
This has given us a tilted, stable rotation.
Thus there is liquid water.  There are seasons.  There are marginal conditions because we have tides and weather.  This has not only allowed life to start, but the changing marginal conditions have allowed and encouraged evolution.  
Along the way, there have been various planetary catastrophes that have rearranged evolution by changing conditions radically.
Humans, as such, have only been around for the last million or so years out of the two and a half or so billion since lifeforms existed.  We have had radio communication for just over 100 of those several million years.
So, if you figure that a radio signal takes about 100,000 years to cross just our galaxy, and if someone over there notices it and replies by return, it would be between 50 and 200,000 years before the reply turned up, depending on distance, so the chances of anybody noticing anybody else are slender, bearing in mind that we don't know how long we can keep our present technological age going.  If chance has allowed another planet with life forms capable of compatible technology to exist, what are the chances of ours and theirs existing in a matching time frame that would allow any form of actual communication?



There is a bit of popular almost mythology being created about Earth and 'special' circumstances leading to life here.

For example the habitable zone from the sun and the moon stabilising the axis rotation to give us seasons.

The sun is now approximately half way through its lifetime. As a star ages, it get brighter, increases in size and puts out more heat. The earth probably wasnt always in the 'habitable zone' which has been moving outward since the sun first started to burn off its fuel. The habitable zone will in approximately 1 billion years be outside the earth's orbit and be between earth and mars. Eventually the sun will grow in size such that it will probably expand to the earth's orbit pushing the habitable zone further out. It may somewhere up to this time, push it out to start to thaw Titan from its frigid temperature and make life habitable there.

The sun will continue to 'live' for another 4 billion years after that before collapsing to a white dwarf.

So, it isnt 'just by chance' that earth is in the habitable zone. Complex life evolved here because the earth has been in the moving habitable zone for some time.

The most widely accepted theory for the formation of the moon is a collision with another proto planet about the size of mars. Not only did this create the moon, it also introduced the axal tilt of the earth we have today and also started or increased the earth's rotational speed about its axis.

If a proto planet had not slammed into the young earth and no resultant moon formed, it does not mean complex life wouldnt have evolved here.

The earth would probably rotate albeit slower about its up and down axis with very little or no wobble. In other words, the eccentric wobble referred to, is a cause and effect of the moon's formation. No collision, no moon forming, no eccentric wobble for the moon to stabilise.

We would still have seasons although they wouldnt be as defined as they are now. The earth's orbit around the sun varies from roughly 91 million miles to 94 million. At the extremes of these distances, summer and winter would be pretty uniform over the planet taking into account we'd have no wobble because they'd been no impact to create it! We'd still have liquid water except at the poles as now, all over the planet even in winter.

Planetary catastrophies do shape evolution as we and the dinosaurs know too well!
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #126 on: December 22, 2009, 12:53:58 AM »

When I first watched 2001 I went with a group of acquaintances most of us were ether drunk, stoned or both, ( I was drunk). It didn't make much sense to me then and still doesn't even sober. I have found that I don't like most SF books made into films.
Regards,
Gerald

In a nutshell, a planet (earth) has primitive life. An older intelligent lifeform decides to speed up evolution by placing von Neumann \ bracewell probe (the monolith) for one group of primitives to find. On touching the monolith, the primitives as given an evolutionary intelligence boost putting them on the path to be the supreme intelligence on the planet.

A von Neumann \ bracewell probe is left burried on the moon so that one day, when the intelligent lifeform from earth reaches the moon, they'll find a hugh marker in the form of a magnetic field making them want to find is causing the magnetic field. Once humans touch the monolith, it sends a signal to another monolith \ von Neumann \ bracewell probes in orbit around Jupiter that stage one of the planetary evolution is complete.

The humans follow the signal from the moon monolith to jupiter. Cutting out the c--- with the pyscho HAL 2000, the remaining crew member goes to the monolith in orbit and finds its a star gate of sorts. He's transported to the world of the intelligent lifeform who visited earth and left the monolith for the primates. He ages naturally and dies.

The intelligent lifeform send him back as a baby in the next evolutionary step for mankind.
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #127 on: December 22, 2009, 01:19:02 AM »

When I first watched 2001 I went with a group of acquaintances most of us were ether drunk, stoned or both, ( I was drunk). It didn't make much sense to me then and still doesn't even sober. I have found that I don't like most SF books made into films.
Regards,
Gerald
How quickly you interject,that you were "drunk"which only reinforces my belief that you might have been the other,or both, {-) {-)

Wullie
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #128 on: December 22, 2009, 01:34:40 AM »

It didn't make much sense to me then and still doesn't even sober. I have found that I don't like most SF books made into films.

Well, of course, lots of people don't like it. It isn't a conventional film by any means, though even if you don't appreciate the story-line the photography, effects and music are superb.

And of course it's not an SF book made into a film. Clarke sold Kubrick the rights to a few of his short stories at the beginning of negotiations, but as it became clear that the film would be nothing like the stories Clarke bought them back again. A book was made of the film - Clarke always described this as Kubrick and Clarke writing the screen-play at the same time as Clarke and Kubrick wrote the book. In that order.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #129 on: December 22, 2009, 09:51:45 AM »

Just a question about looking for Dyson spheres.

A Dyson sphere is when a planetary civilisation dismantles the planets  and other matter orbiting a star and uses it to build a shell around the star where lifeforms can live on the inside of the sphere.

By definition:

1. The mass of the sphere will be very small compared with that of the star it encloses
2. The sphere will trap all radiation being emitted from the star

So how would you detect it?

Or is this the explanation for all the hidden "dark matter" in the universe?  %)

Colin
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #130 on: December 22, 2009, 10:04:46 AM »

According to recent reports in the news Dark Matter has to exist ,as it is this which holds the Universe together, {:-{

Wullie
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dreadnought72

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #131 on: December 22, 2009, 10:27:00 AM »

By definition:

1. The mass of the sphere will be very small compared with that of the star it encloses
2. The sphere will trap all radiation being emitted from the star

So how would you detect it?

Or is this the explanation for all the hidden "dark matter" in the universe?  %)

Colin

Colin, think of the Dyson Sphere as an engine. Main Sequence stars' peak energy outputs are in visible light. This light is utilised by the Dyson Sphere. Waste has to be emitted, and this would be as heat. So you'd want to look for point-source, infra-red bodies, emitting a substantial fraction of a star's energy.

Andy
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #132 on: December 22, 2009, 11:15:59 AM »

...think of the Dyson Sphere as an engine. Main Sequence stars' peak energy outputs are in visible light. This light is utilised by the Dyson Sphere. Waste has to be emitted, and this would be as heat. So you'd want to look for point-source, infra-red bodies, emitting a substantial fraction of a star's energy.

Could someone explain to me again why a sophisticated civilisation needs a Dyson Sphere? I didn't catch it last time.

It seems to me that, rather than trapping energy from a star, it would be more sensible to create energy where you need it, with a 'Mr Fusion' machine, or by extraction from zero-state energy in the quantum froth. I can't see that the vast amounts of energy coming from a star will be needed - as civilisations get more sophisticated they self-limit their populations, as we can see happening in Western countries at the moment.

A star is an impressive natural phenomenon, with a lot of energy output. A bit like a waterfall. But we no longer enclose waterfalls and use their energy - we build power stations where we need to. The Dyson Sphere argument seems to me a bit like saying that we should scan planets to see if they have no waterfalls, because an advanced civilisation would obviously use all the waterfalls as energy sources.... 
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polaris

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #133 on: December 22, 2009, 11:32:59 AM »


Dear Dodgygeezer,

... because that new carpet cleaner of his won't work without one!!! {-) {-) {-) :-)) %)

Regards, Bernard
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dreadnought72

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #134 on: December 22, 2009, 01:07:48 PM »

Could someone explain to me again why a sophisticated civilisation needs a Dyson Sphere? I didn't catch it last time.

They were proposed as the natural end result of a growing alien culture's increasing energy consumption.

That is, if you need 380 yottawatts* to run things, then a Dyson sphere's the way to do it. Stars are very efficient at what they do.  :-)

Andy

* Don't worry, I had to look it up.
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #135 on: December 22, 2009, 02:17:05 PM »

We,ve got a Kirby,and it,ll beat the pants off a Dyson all day long,and it can even be used to spray paint {-) {-)

Wullie
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #136 on: December 22, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »

Until the end falls off I'll just stick with the Electrolux.
There may be, or there may be going to be, or there may have been, life-forms out there that may or may not have developed to the stage where they can reach out.  The chances of us actually finding one are about the same as me setting off from here to go to Tasmania and running into someone else going from Rio to Moscow with out either of us knowing of the existence of each other in the first place.  Even if our journeys happened at the same time. 
Recognising a different life-form that has evolved under different circumstances than our own may well present difficulties. (Star Trek - that early episode with the large rock bun that was eating extras at an alarming rate that Bones fixed with a bag of Pollyfilla springs to mind).  Assuming that their method of communicating would be in any way compatible with anything that we know is a large blind leap of logic almost as big as those found in cosmetic adverts.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #137 on: December 22, 2009, 03:11:01 PM »

They were proposed as the natural end result of a growing alien culture's increasing energy consumption.

So it is simply a guess, based on the assumption that everything will continue to rise, and that no new energy production systems would be invented...?

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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2009, 04:19:34 PM »

So it is simply a guess, based on the assumption that everything will continue to rise, and that no new energy production systems would be invented...?


..........and that "they" would think like, and have, the same requirements as us?
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2009, 04:40:48 PM »

..........and that "they" would think like, and have, the same requirements as us?

Nope. That "they" would think like, and have the same requirements as, an American in the year AD 1970.....
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2009, 08:43:10 PM »

And not only would they speak English with a US accent, when the spaceships meet, they will ALWAYS be mutually the right end up.
Another rule - aliens never have either smaller heads or thinner necks.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #141 on: December 22, 2009, 11:48:16 PM »

And not only would they speak English with a US accent, when the spaceships meet, they will ALWAYS be mutually the right end up.
Another rule - aliens never have either smaller heads or thinner necks.


Until CGI, when aliens either become menacing insects or comic furry creatures...

And their gravity simulators are always first-rate, indistinguishable from the real thing...
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #142 on: December 23, 2009, 09:23:44 AM »

Come to think of it, now you've mentioned CGI, and pushing the definition a bit, the Coyote vs Roadrunner probably qualifies as SciFi, along with Bugs Bunny vs Marvin and Marvin vs Duck Dodgers in the twenty-fourth-and-a-halftht century.
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #143 on: December 23, 2009, 11:21:19 AM »

Just to confuse you all a bit more,..my late father was an "Alien"and i have his Alien book to prove it,He along with all his comrades who,were POW,s were imprisoned in Scotland, and in 1949 they came under the Alien Act,and were issued with little Red Alien Act Books,which meant that wherever he went, he had to register with the local Police,and get his Alien book stamped,He was under this Act for 10 Years,after which he was deemed as an Alien no more,So you see ,they have been among us for years,

Wullie
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dave301bounty

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #144 on: December 23, 2009, 09:07:12 PM »

Just reading this little item ,  explains a lot .Give you your dues though ,you seem to know your Tanks . Bet you havent seen the ones in the pound at Seaforth .ex Iraqu etc. they are waiting for a  scrap clearance .
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Jimmy James

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2010, 12:01:09 AM »

Maybe all the other races in the universe are waiting for us to build a space station like Babylon 5 or invent a space drive based on a Mobilus strip --- I like SF and have been reading it for 60 odd years . I think that we may have been visited many times in the history of our world--- after all ,mankind seems to make some unexplained jumps at times and strange myths and legends abound about past people who lived before--- the British isles are rife with them, take for instance the old Celtic / Irish legends
 They say that when they arrived 2 other races allready lived there. A primitive hairy people--- and the the other a tall fair or red haired people with long ears who used weapons and boats made of glass (fiber Glass???)as iron was poison to them. ---The warlike Celts eventually drove the fair (Fairy???)people from the land and they sailed away to the west in Glass boats...
The Spanish when they first arrived in the Americers were greeted as returning Gods by the indigenous populations who told them of the tall ,long eared, fair people (lots of Northen Spanish people are fair or red haired)who had come before and had taught them how to build in stone and grow crops ...when ask where they had gone, they told the Spanish they had gone west across the sea---
Later when Easter island and Christmas island were discovered it was found the local people had built Hugh stone heads to their gods which had red stone wigs or hair and long ears were these the people the Ancient Celts had driven out of the British Isles  or is it S/F? If so who were they ??? Would it make a good film???
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2010, 09:27:38 AM »

Quote
A primitive hairy people

Gosh, I never realised us Mayhemmers went back THAT far!  :o
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Jimmy James

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2010, 09:35:45 PM »

Colin
I'm Shocked
 I thought you had a good memory.
Freebooter  {-) {-)
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #148 on: January 08, 2010, 11:34:19 PM »

Just a question about looking for Dyson spheres.

A Dyson sphere is when a planetary civilisation dismantles the planets  and other matter orbiting a star and uses it to build a shell around the star where lifeforms can live on the inside of the sphere.

By definition:

1. The mass of the sphere will be very small compared with that of the star it encloses
2. The sphere will trap all radiation being emitted from the star

So how would you detect it?

Or is this the explanation for all the hidden "dark matter" in the universe?  %)

Colin

Not quite.

Lets imagine we want to build a dyson sphere around the sun. The intention would be the sphere would be built around the sun out to a distance oof roughly earth's current orbit ie 93 million miles from the sun. Why would we build the sphere out to this distance? because we need water to stay in its liquid form. Build the inside of the sphere too close to the sun, all the water would be boiled off. Build the inside of the sphere to Mars' orbit and the water would turn to ice.

OK let's assume the host star of a civilisation is twice the size of the sun. Then the dyson sphere would have to be built outwards to that star's habitable zone where water stayed fluid. Let's assume this distance is twice that of earth's orbit since the star is twice the size of the sun. So, the inside of the dyson sphere would be 93million miles x 2 = 186million miles. (Yes a star twice the size of the sun may have its habitable zone nearer than that.)

OK, no lets assume the civilisation's host star is a brown dwarf. Its a lot cooler so the dyson sphere would be a lot smaller. But we could imagine this would mean the dyson sphere would be built out to around Mercury's orbit.

In each of these cases, we can see the dyson sphere around each star will be more massive than the host star by a significant margin. This is because cto near or far away from the star and water wouldnt be stable.

At these sizes, even a dyson sphere around a brown dwarf would be huge. It may not be as easily detectable but, a dyson sphere around a star the size of our sun or bigger, would be so huge it would be one of the biggest objects in the galaxy.

Such an object would also bend space the same as every one of the planets and stars in the galaxy do. Being so large, a dyson sphere will bend space, light and gravity around it. This would make any dyson sphere around a star similarly sized to our own stand out even more so making them detectable.

Dyson spheres would if any existed, be easily detectable even if the civilisation that built them have long since vanished. We do not detect any dyson spheres in the galaxy. We do not detect any dyson sphere because no intelligent civilisation since the galaxy formed over 10 billion years ago, have been around to build them. There has been no other intelligent civilisation in the galaxy even in the last million years capable of building a dyson sphere otherwise we should see them.
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Dreadstar

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #149 on: January 09, 2010, 09:41:32 AM »

Now comes the $64,000,000 question,how could any civilisation gather enough mass to enable them to even attempt to build a sphere? In our solar system,there isn't enough mass in all the planets combined to even contemplate such a construction. %%
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