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Author Topic: There's no one out there!  (Read 57869 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #275 on: March 09, 2010, 04:35:00 PM »

Usually it's about 15 years Roger, but it depends what you've done.... %)

Colin
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Roger in France

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #276 on: March 09, 2010, 05:09:22 PM »

I will ignore that one, Colin!

But it is a very serious question and one which few great minds down the centuries can agree upon. It is important because unless we agree upon what we are looking for how will we know if and when we find it?

For example, earlier in this fascinating discussion there has been reference to life forms which may not have achieved any technological level which would allow them to receive or create communications. There has also been reference to life forms that have become extinct. How do we count or discount these if they exist or have existed?

I shall always remember a fascinating story by Fred Hoyle (a one time Astronomer Royal?) in which he described an inter gallactic life form like some kind of cloud that was dispersed and sought ultimate knowledge. When one "cloud" found the answer and sought to pass the information to its kin it ceased to exist!

I should probably add that I am someone who has an intrinsic belief that there have been, must be or will be other life forms out there. My definition of "life form" being a "sentient entity".

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" Hamlet
Roger in France.
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Jimmy James

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #277 on: March 09, 2010, 09:08:41 PM »

Bravo Roger ,  :-))---You are not alone ...  {:-{
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #278 on: March 09, 2010, 10:08:43 PM »

I will ignore that one, Colin!

But it is a very serious question and one which few great minds down the centuries can agree upon. It is important because unless we agree upon what we are looking for how will we know if and when we find it?

For example, earlier in this fascinating discussion there has been reference to life forms which may not have achieved any technological level which would allow them to receive or create communications. There has also been reference to life forms that have become extinct. How do we count or discount these if they exist or have existed?

I shall always remember a fascinating story by Fred Hoyle (a one time Astronomer Royal?) in which he described an inter gallactic life form like some kind of cloud that was dispersed and sought ultimate knowledge. When one "cloud" found the answer and sought to pass the information to its kin it ceased to exist!

I should probably add that I am someone who has an intrinsic belief that there have been, must be or will be other life forms out there. My definition of "life form" being a "sentient entity".

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy" Hamlet
Roger in France.

Hi Rog.

I dont really think deciding what 'life' is, is that big an issue. In any event, the concept is one of a 'search for extra terrestrial intelligence.' As such, the question of 'life' doesnt really matter in this quest since, the 'life' that we are searching for may have been dead for millions of years when we find evidence of its existence.

Would we claim that because the 'life' that sent the signal or built some object ,say, a bracewell probe, and had long disappeared that it wasnt evidence that some other intelligence existed? I dont think so.

In any event, the extra terrestrial 'intelligence' we may find, if its a bracewell or von Nueman probe, would probably be classed as artificial intelligence and therefore not life that is biological or capable of reproduction.
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Roger in France

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #279 on: March 10, 2010, 11:19:10 AM »

Are you suggesting that extra terrestrial intelligence or artificial intelligence can arise without there having be a life form to set it off?

Roger in France
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Bryan Young

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #280 on: March 10, 2010, 04:31:40 PM »

I would think that I wasn't the only forum member to have watched both "The Solar System" and the Horizon programme on "Dark Matter.
What a contrast. The "Solar System" was just brilliant. Well researched, written and presented. Superb graphics and photography..and human interest.
The BBCs "Horizon" offering on Tuesday went straight into the "could do a lot better" category. How the programme makers could manage to turn what is a fascinating subject into such a mass of turgidness beats me.
Really, how often do you need to see the same balloon being inflated or the same (with lights and flames) purporting to illustrate the "Big Bang". Take all those pepeats out and with decent editing you may just have filled 30 minutes as opposed to the 60 they inflicted on us. And just to rub it in, the main subject ("Dark Matter") was only given a few grudging minutes towards the end. I that really the best the BBC dould do with the subject?
However, I'm posting on this thread because, although a little out of the "mainstream", I think it belongs here.
Some questions.
Just why is the "Big Bang" theory so widely accepted as being the "truth" and unique?
Perhaps there was an earlier "BB" and all the "stuff" (galaxies and so on) went merrily sailing on outwards forever...or perhaps reached a stasis point. But no, according to "Horizon" the galaxies are not slowing down as gravity weakens (another oxymoron) but are accelerating. If they were slowing down as they reached the stasis point then surely they would all stop and begin to return to their point of origin. Not happening (allegedly). But if you think about it we (said very loosley) we could have "BBs" going off all over the place, how would we know.
The word "Universe" is only a "man-made" thing anyway. If 2 "universes" created by 2 seperate "BBs" were to get tangled up with each other perhaps another "BB" would happen (if gravity is "universally") true. However, if what I heard last night is true and the galaxies have now speede up, maybe they are being attracted towards other sources.
My little brain can just about accept the concept of a naturally expanding universe (as long as can remember that the word "universe" is only an adjective), so I can imagine "others"....but eventually the brain fizzles out.
In all this cosmology we, on our little planet, are really quite parochial. Even the word "alien" has to be a man-made word.
What if the whole supposed point of the Horizon programme missed the idea that the so-called "Dark Matter" is, in fact a seperate or another facet / type of universe?
As far as "intelligent" life is concerned then again we can only judge such a thing by our own yardstick. Could be we are as thick as alien planks as far as "they" are concerned. If we do eventually meet up with another life-form then so be it, but we have enough little problems to solve on our own little spheroid before we find another shoulder to cry on.
Oh, and by the way,...I agree with Fred Hoyle that we may have been "seeded" on this planet sometime before yesterday. BY.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #281 on: March 10, 2010, 05:09:50 PM »

I watched the Horizon programme, or most of it. It was very poor and I gave up towards the end because of the rubbish 'special effects'. Shame really.

Colin
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dreadnought72

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #282 on: March 10, 2010, 05:15:37 PM »

Just why is the "Big Bang" theory so widely accepted as being the "truth" and unique?

What we see fits the theory. Pop over to wikipedia's entry on the Big Bang and scroll down to "Observational evidence" for a better explanation than I could produce.

Meanwhile, Andy's Theory of Horizon Programmes succinctly states that, as they are made by the BBC, a bastion of Media Studies and Arts students, they are, invariably, not very good at explaining science. This week's debacle was also not helped by the fact that we have no idea what Dark Energy is (so shoving it into the last ten minutes was the best anyone could help to do.)

Andy
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meechingman

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #283 on: March 10, 2010, 05:28:27 PM »

I could tell the BBC what Dark Flow is.

It's what goes down a sewer and that's where this programme should have gone. Oh, for the Horizons of yesteryear.
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Bryan Young

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #284 on: March 10, 2010, 05:49:34 PM »

All very nice replies....but has no-one else got words of praise (no pun intended) for the Sunday offering? BY.
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Jimmy James

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #285 on: March 10, 2010, 07:49:45 PM »

I Mainly bypassed both programs, because for the most part they are only a rehash of things that have been battered to death with very little original thinking or content. Having said that, Some of the photography is super. I often wonder if the old SF theory of Dark or Anti Matter as a power source will ever pan-out {:-{ {:-{
Relight blue touch paper and Run %)
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #286 on: March 10, 2010, 10:06:34 PM »

Are you suggesting that extra terrestrial intelligence or artificial intelligence can arise without there having be a life form to set it off?

Roger in France

Hi Rog.

Sorry probably didnt explain myself well enough.

IMVHO, artificial intelligence or artificial lifeform ie that which is not biological as in the case of Bracewell or von Neumann probes, need a biological lifeform to have created them. De facto, that biological lifeform must also be intelligent enough to create the artificial intelligence or lifeform.

The reason why I suggest this in the previous post, is because the biological lifeform that first create the Bracewell or von Neumann probes could well have long ago died out. However, because the Bracewell \ von Neuman probes are artificial, be self replicating and capable of interacting with other intelligence, they must also be intelligent.

Despite what the best of science fiction shows us, I do not believe artificial lifeforms whether intelligent or not, came into existence without the aid of biological intelligence. So, to answer your question, no.
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #287 on: March 10, 2010, 10:29:52 PM »

I would think that I wasn't the only forum member to have watched both "The Solar System" and the Horizon programme on "Dark Matter.
What a contrast. The "Solar System" was just brilliant. Well researched, written and presented. Superb graphics and photography..and human interest.
The BBCs "Horizon" offering on Tuesday went straight into the "could do a lot better" category. How the programme makers could manage to turn what is a fascinating subject into such a mass of turgidness beats me.
Really, how often do you need to see the same balloon being inflated or the same (with lights and flames) purporting to illustrate the "Big Bang". Take all those pepeats out and with decent editing you may just have filled 30 minutes as opposed to the 60 they inflicted on us. And just to rub it in, the main subject ("Dark Matter") was only given a few grudging minutes towards the end. I that really the best the BBC dould do with the subject?
However, I'm posting on this thread because, although a little out of the "mainstream", I think it belongs here.
Some questions.
Just why is the "Big Bang" theory so widely accepted as being the "truth" and unique?
Perhaps there was an earlier "BB" and all the "stuff" (galaxies and so on) went merrily sailing on outwards forever...or perhaps reached a stasis point. But no, according to "Horizon" the galaxies are not slowing down as gravity weakens (another oxymoron) but are accelerating. If they were slowing down as they reached the stasis point then surely they would all stop and begin to return to their point of origin. Not happening (allegedly). But if you think about it we (said very loosley) we could have "BBs" going off all over the place, how would we know.
The word "Universe" is only a "man-made" thing anyway. If 2 "universes" created by 2 seperate "BBs" were to get tangled up with each other perhaps another "BB" would happen (if gravity is "universally") true. However, if what I heard last night is true and the galaxies have now speede up, maybe they are being attracted towards other sources.
My little brain can just about accept the concept of a naturally expanding universe (as long as can remember that the word "universe" is only an adjective), so I can imagine "others"....but eventually the brain fizzles out.
In all this cosmology we, on our little planet, are really quite parochial. Even the word "alien" has to be a man-made word.
What if the whole supposed point of the Horizon programme missed the idea that the so-called "Dark Matter" is, in fact a seperate or another facet / type of universe?
As far as "intelligent" life is concerned then again we can only judge such a thing by our own yardstick. Could be we are as thick as alien planks as far as "they" are concerned. If we do eventually meet up with another life-form then so be it, but we have enough little problems to solve on our own little spheroid before we find another shoulder to cry on.
Oh, and by the way,...I agree with Fred Hoyle that we may have been "seeded" on this planet sometime before yesterday. BY.

Sadly I didnt get to see these programmes. I have to fight for the tv remote unfortunately!

Anyhoo, the theory regarding the Big Bang is the generally accepted way our universe came into being. Im not certain exactly when it was but until recently (I think) there was no concensus of how the universe would end. Broadly, opinion fell into the Big Crunch where eventually expansion of the universe would stop and reverse to nothing, be in a relative steady state where the universe would expand to a size and then stay like that or, the Big Rip where the speed of expansion of the universe continues to speed up such that eventually, all the atoms in the univers, galaxies, stars, planets, lifeform etc just fly apart from each other.

Recent discoveries have shown that the expansion of the universe is getting faster so the favoured theory is the Big Rip will be the ultimate end. However, there are still many discoveries to be made so who knows which scenario will be correct?

A number of scientists now use the word brane as in membrane to describe the universe. This is because they believe they are on the cusp of proving 'our' universe is one of many and that we may live in a multiverse! The thinking is that a 'new' universe may come into being when two branes collide ie the two branes colliding create a 'big bang' that starts a new universe.

It will be fascinating if all this can be proved.

Just like to say a post from dodgey geezer caught my eye further up. DG claims I've changed my tune \ opinion and cant have it both ways. His argument seems to be based on his interpretation that I said SETI@home is fatally flawed.

DG is completely free to suggest what he wants. Frankly, I havent changed my stance one bit and Im not trying to have it both ways. Perhaps DG should accept others position instead as, he regularly seems to do, interpret others comments with his own slant.

I know it must be bitterly disappointing to have run the seti@home programe on 20 headless pc's for nearly 10 years and found squat. But, its not just me who state seti's search for an electromagnetic or laser signal is fatally flawed. Many people are accepting the chances of ever intercepting a signal are between bob hope and no hope (well may be not quite in those terms!)
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #288 on: March 10, 2010, 10:50:34 PM »

Quote
However, because the Bracewell \ von Neuman probes are artificial, be self replicating and capable of interacting with other intelligence, they must also be intelligent.
Interaction and replication is no measure of intelligence, assuming that because these can happen involves intelligence is a leap of logic too far.  Being able to reach conclusions not determined by pre-programming is a big step towards intelligence, otherwise it's just having knowledge.  It is possible to have huge knowledge and no intelligence.  I've seen filing cabinets like that, and the people working them.  Sometimes the people have the greater level of intelligence.

One thing I never could follow about the big bang.  It almost invariably gets depicted as an ever inflating balloon, starting at one unitary point.  From this, EVERYTHING got shot out with equal force in all directions.  It must also have been propelled uniformly.  So where did all the little whirls and eddys that became galaxies and suchlike come from?  If everything was started from the same point with the same force, everything should just have expanded like the skin of the balloon.  Unless there was SOMETHING there to create a disturbance.  Which knackers up the classic big bang. 
Must send out for more ouzo.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #289 on: March 11, 2010, 09:43:00 AM »

Quote
Unless there was SOMETHING there to create a disturbance.

It was the butterfly. Probably the same one that's flapping its wings in South America at the moment and causing this dreadful winter.

Cosmology theory is very dependent on observation. I was brought up with Fred Hoyle's 'Steady State' theory whereby the stars all behaved like good little sparklers and atoms popped into being or disappeared at random intervals. (probably for regular maintenance).

Observation scotched that theory which was replaced by the 'Big Bang' and as our powers of observation increase the Big Bang itself is now being qualified. Another few years and it may fall by the wayside itself to be replaced by the BBC special effects department.

There is still a lot to be discovered yet which could transform our thinking in the future. The Large Hadron Collider' (I've always found the spelling slightly suspect) is intended to research these issues but apparently they can't run it at full power until it's been beefed up which means another year out of action.

Colin
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #290 on: March 11, 2010, 02:26:35 PM »

Quote
apparently they can't run it at full power until it's been beefed up which means another year out of action.
Probably needs the meter re-slotting to use Euros rather than Swiss Francs.
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #291 on: March 11, 2010, 03:33:11 PM »

Interaction and replication is no measure of intelligence, assuming that because these can happen involves intelligence is a leap of logic too far.  Being able to reach conclusions not determined by pre-programming is a big step towards intelligence, otherwise it's just having knowledge.  It is possible to have huge knowledge and no intelligence.  I've seen filing cabinets like that, and the people working them.  Sometimes the people have the greater level of intelligence.

Interaction and replication may not in themselves or together be, a sign or measure of intelligence. However, the concept of Bracewell and or von Neumann probes would likely have artificial intelligence built in enabling it to find the necessary resources required for self replication and, conduct a two way exchange of information. In any event, the probes could have been created with fully functioning artificial intelligence. Given such probes would be sent out and possibly spend millions of years self replicating, who knows what this could evolve into?

At the end of the day, its really a question of semantics. Has a probe been given \ evolved artificial inteligence or not? I think your suposition comes from my response to Rog whether I though artificial life \ intelligence could have evolved by itself or needed a biological lifeform to start the process off.

Im being consistent in so far as an evolving discussion goes. I dont think artificial life and or intelligence could have come about  on its own. Once created however, an artificial life form and or intelligence could evolve further on its own.

Quote
One thing I never could follow about the big bang.  It almost invariably gets depicted as an ever inflating balloon, starting at one unitary point.  From this, EVERYTHING got shot out with equal force in all directions.  It must also have been propelled uniformly.  So where did all the little whirls and eddys that became galaxies and suchlike come from?  If everything was started from the same point with the same force, everything should just have expanded like the skin of the balloon.  Unless there was SOMETHING there to create a disturbance.  Which knackers up the classic big bang. 
Must send out for more ouzo.

Well the BB is depicted as an inflating balloon since all the evidence currently best supports this theory, even down to the inflation (although this is a term used by scientists to describe the uniform dispersal of matter \ energy etc which couldnt otherwise be explained).

In the early moments after the BB, the temperature was calculated to be billions of degrees. Sub atomic particles joined to create new elements and so on until matter which we see today as galaxies, stars and planets etc came into being. Obviously, I woudnt claim this to be an exact description of what happened and, the formation and destruction of early stars in the universe created more elements and more stars etc.

See here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_%28cosmology%29

and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
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Roger in France

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #292 on: March 11, 2010, 03:56:51 PM »

This is all fascinating. However, as my scientific knowledge of the subject is very limited I researched the two types of "probe" referred to above.

I noted that they had been referred to as "concepts".

My research appears to show that no such probes are known to have existed and Earth science certainly has not the capacity, currently, to create such a thing.

So why are they being used to support arguments? I may as well say I can conceive of a very sophisticated ear trumpet that has not picked anything up, but if anything existed I would hear it!

Roger in France
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #293 on: March 14, 2010, 12:28:36 AM »

This is all fascinating. However, as my scientific knowledge of the subject is very limited I researched the two types of "probe" referred to above.

I noted that they had been referred to as "concepts".

My research appears to show that no such probes are known to have existed and Earth science certainly has not the capacity, currently, to create such a thing.

So why are they being used to support arguments? I may as well say I can conceive of a very sophisticated ear trumpet that has not picked anything up, but if anything existed I would hear it!

Roger in France

Rog, you cant be serious with this statement 'So why are they being used to support arguments?'

The concept of Bracewell and von Neumann probes is as sound as the concept of travelling across the galaxy at sub light speed and colonising it within a roughly 10 million year time span or other concepts such as Dyson Spheres etc. Since the whole thread is broadly conceptual, discussing whether there are any ETI's in the galaxy, I dont see it as unreasonable to use Bracewell and von Neumann probes as potential instruments of ETI and therefore, a different means to radio signals of detecting ETI's in the galaxy if they exist or existed.

In any event, its not quite correct to say we arent capable of building Bracewell probes. A generally accepted definition of a Bracewell probe is an autonomous interstellar spacecraft despatched with the intent of communicating with one or more alien civilisation. The generally accepted definition of a von Neumann probe is a self replicating spacecraft designed to investigate a target system and transmit information about it to its originators.

Although they were not specifically designed as out and out Bracewell probes, the Pioneer and Voyager spacecraft have, having to all intents and purposes left the planets of the solar system behind and heading towards interstellar space, become just that, ie Bracewell probes. In fact the Voyagers could be said to be a very basic Bracewell probe since they were desgned to carry a recording from Earth so when their primary mission ended, if they were ever found by an ETI, they would be aware of our existence.

I wouldnt like to suggest we are on the verge of building von Neumann probes but quite possibly within the next 50 to 100 years we may be.

As regards Bracewell and or von Neumann probes sent out by other ETI, if they exist or existed, there have been limited attempts to activate these in our locale. To date, these have been unsuccessful so we can argue there are either none in our locale or none have been created.

It is thought good places to search for Bracewell and or von Neumann probes would be the lagrange points where the Earth and Sun's gravity effectively cancel each other out. I understand further observations in these locations could be made in the near future.

As a matter of interest, some people think the near earth object 2010 AL30 may be an alien Bracewell probe due to its orbit being similar to Earth's and other characteristics that they consider, may suggest it is not an asteroid nor a spent rocket booster (a used S4B, 3rd stage of the Saturn 5).

Edited to correct spelling mistake!
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #294 on: March 14, 2010, 09:35:55 PM »

I need to make a clarification to my statement that some people think 2010 AL30 may be an alien Bracewell probe. This was not the object I thought had been suggested could be an alien probe although there is mixed opinion on whether the NEO is an asteroid, a spent rocket booster or indeed an alien artefact.

Let me make it quite clear, I am not suggestting this object or the one I meant to refer to, 1991 VG, is an indication of an alien probe is in our vacinity or that an ETI created it. This all being my attempt to 'have it both ways' as one poster claimed!

Im merely notifying the fact that some people think either one or both these objects could be alien probes. If either could be proved beyond doubt to be alien artefacts then, clearly they would confirm the presence of at least one other intelligent civilisation in our galaxy.

This is an interesting link regarding 1991 VG from a site by Duncan Steel Phd

http://wanderling.tripod.com/1991_vg.html

Abstract: A 10-metre object on a heliocentric orbit, now catalogued as 1991 VG, made a close approach to the Earth in 1991 December, and was discovered a month before perigee with the Spacewatch telescope at Kitt Peak. Its very Earth-like orbit and observations of rapid brightness fluctuations argued for it being an artificial body rather than an asteroid. None of the handful of man-made rocket bodies left in heliocentric orbits during the space age have purely gravitational orbits returning to the Earth at that time. In addition, the small perigee distance observed might be interpreted as an indicator of a controlled rather than a random encounter with the Earth, and thus it might be argued that 1991 VG is a candidate as an alien probe observed in the vicinity of our planet.


    The approach taken in this paper is to investigate the different probabilities regarding the nature of the near-earth pass of the object designated 1991 VG.

    Three distinct possibilities are apparent. The first is that it was a natural asteroid, to which we assign a probability P(n), that is, Probability natural. The second is that it was a man-made spacecraft, probability P(s), or Probability spacecraft. The third is that it was an alien artifact, probability P(a), Probability artifact. If we assume that there are no other possible explanations then the three taken together and written in formula P(n) + P(s) + P(a) = 1. The scepticism of a scientist (myself included) leads one to assume that P(a) = 0, but that assumption, it will be seen, is not supported by our knowledge of 1991 VG and its discovery circumstances. I show below that these indicate both P(n) and P(s) to be small, implying that P(a) , Probability artifact, is significant.


Chapman-Rietschi 1 has noted, following Arkhipov2, that much work and discussion of SETI tends to overlook the possibility of discovering alien artifacts within the Solar System. Such a pursuit is normally known as SETA (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Artifacts3,4). Over the past two decades various authors have debated whether the best place to look for such artifacts is in the asteroid belt5, in the outer Solar System6 on planetary surfaces7, or as extraterrestrial probes in the inner Solar System8-10, whereas the famous Fermi Paradox argument is based upon the understanding that such probes have not been detected, and thus extraterrestrial intelligent beings do not exist11,12. The aim of this communication is to point out (very tentativeIy) that an extraterrestrial spaceprobe may have been detected in late 1991 in near-Earth space.

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justboatonic

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The Eerie Silence by Paul Davies.
« Reply #295 on: March 16, 2010, 12:32:53 AM »

Paul Davies has a new book coming out called the Eerie Silence in which he explores chances of ETI's and what alternate strategies could be employed to find them, if they exist.

There is an excellent web cast from the Royal Institue given by Pauls davies here http://royalsociety.org/The-Eerie-Silence/

Its free to watch and lasts about an hour. There's a quite lengthy introduction before Paul Davies starts his lecture but bear with it. Also there's a short Q & A at the end.
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Greggy1964

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #296 on: March 16, 2010, 10:36:43 AM »

Frank R Wallace, founder of I & O Publishing (google it) created a new philosophy in the 1980's which he named Neo-Tech, which discusses the subject of visits to our world from races afar.

He also discusses such subjects as integrated thinking and the idea that human individuals have the inalienable rights to his or her own life and property, and he also discusses how these channels of thought all tie together with the possibility of visits from space.

Frank Wallace suggests that the Universe is so vast (and expanding) that statistical analysis suggests that there are billions of civilisations at various states of societal development scattered across the immeasurable tracts of the Universe. Statistically, some of those civilisations will have developed waaaaaayy beyond our own technology levels and would study us the way we study bugs in a drop of water.

This, if followed through to its logical conclusion, would mean that we would be just as unaware of them as the bugs are unaware of us studying them in their water drop universe!

Frank Wallace postulated that a 'civilised' race, in order to travel across space to reach other civilisations would have got to the point in their development where they had the technology to create enough power and the technology to develop ships capable of travelling such vast distances safely.

He called this this 'nuclear decision threshold', this is the point where a civilisation moves into a free thinking, crime free society that recognised the individual rights of each and every one of its citizens in a free market economy. This would also mean that no individual or group of individuals would have the right to confiscate the life or property of any individual - which rules out the notion of Governmental rule!

This also means they would have sufficient energy to wipe out their entire civilisation on their home world.

At that point in development they would make one of only two choices, destroy their entire race, or develop beyond the nuclear decision threshold and develop a free market society as discussed above.

We currently stand at that threshold on our world.

Such a society would then be able to focus all their mental and physical energy on the need to travel across space, such a scenario might be the impending death of their sun for instance.

He also postulates that such a society would most likely not range beyond their own solar system once they had colonised and utilised the resources of 'local' worlds, and in such a situation there would be no reason to go beyond these boundaries as the cost in effort and materials would far outweigh any advantages.

Also such a society would have the technology and power to travel to our solar system and our world, but such a society would have to have developed to such a point as indicated above and so would logically be a peaceful race, a race who would also recognise the rights to life of any other civilisation - destructive or not.

Such a society would have defence powers far beyond our puny projectile flinging technology but would use it only to protect their own precious society.

All the more precious because they would have no doubt have developed the technology to rid themselves of disease and most certainly would have developed biological immortality in order to be able to live long enough to travel across the billions of miles to get here.

They would also have technology to listen in on all the radio waves we fling willy nilly out into space and they would be able to observe all our other types of information transmissions from afar.

Can you imagine what such a civilisation would think of a warring bickering world in which individual rights mean nothing, where one man is will willing to destroy the life of another with a gun for the contents of his wallet?

And we, who work on the premise, shoot first and ask questions later wonder why no one has visited us before?

If there were any such visits, they would most certainly be 'un manned' or if you like 'un peopled' ships who could observe only and not risk anything other than a probe. They would also avoid the risk of such a probe being discovered and captured by our race as this would mean their technology could be used against our selves by individuals with 'rule the world' 'rule the country' fill in the blank (. . . . . . . . ) mentality (Hitler, Pol Pot, Mau spring to mind!) and so would take steps to avoid such a scenario.

This may be what has been reported for years in UFO sightings, who knows? But still, no such society would venture near until our society reached that world wide 'nuclear decision' threshold on our own world which recognises the rights of each and every individual.

Think of the technology such a race could impart on us if we were a peaceful race, instead of the bickering warring groups of folks fighting other groups and individuals in their own society, fighting over patches of land and resources that after 80 years or so each individual is dead anyway and passes it onto the next generation of warring bickering individuals!

Think of the massive technology jumps they would freely give us in order that we might enjoy their level of life, peace and prosperity?

Nah! not a chance! Not at our current level of development.

Where we teeter on the brink of societal abyss!
 
Nope!

No way!%)
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justboatonic

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New Jupiter size exo planet in Mercury type orbit found
« Reply #297 on: March 17, 2010, 07:49:20 PM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8572760.stm

It is 1,500 light-years from Earth but CoRoT-9b is the first temperate planet found known to be similar to those within our own Solar System.

The presence of CoRoT-9b was detected by a space mission designed to find planets we cannot see from the ground.

"It is the size of Jupiter and has an orbit similar to Mercury," said lead researcher Dr Hans Deeg.

The scientists say the discovery of the planet shows that the development history of our Solar System has been repeated around other stars.

Sorry but that last sentence is appalling!

All the research has shown that Jupiter size planets cannot form close in to its parent star as there is insufficient 'material' for them to form. Instead, Jupiter mass planet are almost certain to form far further out. The models show for a jupiter size planet to be in a close orbit to its star, it must migrate inwards. In doing this, the inward migrating Jupiter size planet ends up ejecting any terrestrial size planets in the 'habitable zone' out of the star system.

Now to my knowledge, our solar system doesnt have a Jupiter size planet in Mercury's orbit. In fact, the evidence for our solar system suggest at least one of our gas giants, Neptune, was thrown further out into the depths of space by the combined orbits of Jupiter and Saturn.

There's no way this new exoplanet shows the development of our solar system has been repeated around other stars. It in fact adds more weight to the already available evidence  of over 400 exoplanets, that, the development of our solar system is tending towards uniqueness.
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there! Kepler develops a blind spot.
« Reply #298 on: April 01, 2010, 03:02:12 PM »


http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18718-alien-planet-hunter-develops-a-blind-spot.html

OUR best eye on alien worlds has developed a blind spot. NASA's planet-hunting telescope Kepler has developed a fault that means it sees the equivalent of static in some parts of its view.

Kepler launchedMovie Camera in 2009 to hunt for planets orbiting other stars. Many giant planets on tight orbits have already been found, but the telescope's main aim is to find Earth-sized planets orbiting their stars at distances that can support the presence of liquid water and potentially life.

A total of 42 light-detecting chips called CCDs are used to look for periodic dips in starlight when planets pass in front of their host stars. But one of the 21 modules containing two CCDs is now malfunctioning, rendering the stars in its view invisible.

Since the craft rotates its field of view by 90 degrees every three months, the fault means that four regions of the sky are only observable 75 per cent of the time. The good news is that the problem is not expected to spread, and it might be possible to repair it.
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Roger in France

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #299 on: April 01, 2010, 05:47:58 PM »

No, no! You have it all wrong.

It is the "someone out there" protecting their privacy.  ;)

Roger in France
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