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Author Topic: There's no one out there!  (Read 57873 times)

ZZ56

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2009, 05:09:24 AM »

Fact is, we really don't know what the conditions for life are so saying 'well only so many planets orbiting certain kinds of stars can produce it' is fallacious.  Certainly, we can assume that our conditions, when replicated, could produce similarly advanced civilizations, but that doesn't mean they WILL and it doesn't mean civilizations could arise through other conditions.

Life is an incredible rarity if it exists outside Earth.  So far it seems only one of our nine planets supports ANY life, and it has taken millions of years for that life to reach the point where it was even able to form the mental concept of extraterrestrial life.  

The universe is like an enormous ocean and we are in a tiny boat in a storm, trying to hear the sound of someone else shouting. 
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boatmadman

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2009, 08:25:02 AM »

Wullie,

They are keeping me off the grass - PF again :}
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2009, 09:34:22 AM »

Wullie,

They are keeping me off the grass - PF again :}
and every day the Paperboy brings more %%

Wullie
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2009, 10:10:11 AM »

If,as,we are led to believe, we are the only inhabitants of the Universe,why is it that there are so many unexplained issues,items,phenomena in the world,There have been countless artifacts found over the centuries that tell a different story,In the sixties "he hippy years"almost everyone i know had the two hippy bibles,one being the Lord of the Rings and the other,The Erik von Daniken,Mysteries,...think Goldartifact in the shape of a Delta winged fighter found in Peru,..Cave drawings of a jet engine,..that when a jet engine blueprint was overlaid the similarities were too close for comfort,..lead acid batteries dating back to 2nd century,a pillar of an unknown metal found in India,that does not rust,..other cave drawings of what resembles figures with space suits on and helmets with antenae,..If we are to believe that the Bible is a true account,of our Christian beliefs,then there is one passage that always springs to mind,.."and the Gods came down on Fiery Chariots"..mode of transport,chariot,..flying chariot,jet aircraft,??? .Then there,s all the lost civilsations, The Egyptians,who set their pyramids in line with the stars,..The Great Pyramid a Cheops sits on the centre of the earths axis,..was this by chance?..there measurement skills are legendary,yet they did not have "dumpy levels,or theodolites"they used water levels and pieces of wood,plumb lines,copper chisels,yet they were able to cut limestone blocks so fine, that when the were laid on top of each other,the gap between was in fractions of mm,s,
No I don,t think we are the only one,s, i am of the opinion that ET,s have been among us for centuries,and i don,t mean the phone home kind,
Either that, or, I took too much recreational substances in my hippy years, {-)
 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2009, 10:14:43 AM »

And just about all of it has been subsequently proved to be rubbish.

People tend to believe what they want to believe and don't like being confused with the facts which is why all these theories enjoy an indefinite life.

Yes, there are still many puzzles unresolved but it doesn't mean aliens were responsible. The people who lived in ancient times were every bit as clever as us. They may not have had our technology but they knew a lot of other things which have subsequently been lost.

Colin
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2009, 10:24:07 AM »

I never close my mind to anything,life,s too short,

Wullie
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2009, 11:35:21 AM »

Nor do I, but nor do I waste that short time on the preposterous or easily disproved as so many people seem to do. There are enough exciting things out there without giving house room to wild supposition.

The technique is always ther same. Find something which is a bit out of the ordinary or which cannot easily be explained and then build a vast inverted pyramid (often literally!) of flights of fancy around it which only serves to completely obscure the original issue which is actually still very interesting if people take time out to read up on it properly. All the nonsense associated with ancient Egypt is a classic example. The truth is fascinating enough but too many people prefer the commonly peddled drivel!

Colin
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polaris

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2009, 11:46:53 AM »


Dear Colin,

I understand where you are coming from, and, indeed, you are certainly correct in some part. However, there are a great many things that are and remain scientifically extremely curious, and not possible to explain away. The old saying that there is nothing new under the Sun is a true one.

Regards, Bernard
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2009, 12:03:01 PM »

All the nonsense associated with ancient Egypt is a classic example. The truth is fascinating enough but too many people prefer the commonly peddled drivel!

These two sentences,begger belief, {:-{

Wullie
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2009, 12:11:10 PM »

Not sure what you mean Wullie! Care to explain?

Or is beggar spelt wrong?  :} :} :}

Colin
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2009, 02:15:40 PM »

Hi Colin,i stand corrected,beggar,looks more like it,
as for an explanation,well,I just can,t believe,that you think of Egypt as nonsense and drivel,This civilisation spanned centuries,and created things that have withstood time itself,but like so many other great civilisations they all but disappeared,The thing that puzzles me,is why did these civilisations cease to exist,in so short a time,when they had been on the go for centuries,They just did,nt happen overnight,they were years in the making,allegedly using tools that were,not fit for the wonders they created,yet they were able to create,
I will concede that there is a lot of hype when it comes to archaeologists,explaing how they did this,and that,but they still can,t convince me on how these civilisations were able to have knowledge of the Stars,physics chemistry,yet leave little or nothing behind as to how they new all this,
As for aliens,well i just can,t believe that we are the only inhabited planet in the universe,whatever it is,..was it just a compilation of chances that gave us the planet we live on,..the sun being just the correct distance away,,likewise the moon, if any of these two were further or closer,would we be here,..big ??, I do realise that there is a lot of supposition but for all the correct answers,there are so many unanswered,????

Wullie
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2009, 03:03:34 PM »

Hi Wullie,

I think you misunderstood me. Reading about ancient civilisations and visiting their remains is something of a hobby of mine! But there is an awful lot of dross written about Egypt and the pyramids which doesn't stand up to scrutiny. People are awed by the pyramids and seeing them up close they are indeed overwhelming. It's difficult to imagine just how they were built but it's just like model boating really!  %) You see a marvellous scratch built model and you say to yourself - how on earth did he do that? But it's just a question of applying skill, technique and knowledge and when it is explained in detail you can see just how it was done. That is the great value of Mayhem. You are really stuck on something like how to glaze portholes for example and then somebody comes on with a post which says, "well, what I do is x, y & z" - and you think, "gosh I never thought of that".

Like I said earlier, it's the same with building pyramids and things. Those guys were just as intelligent as us and they used the techniques that had available to them at the time. Over the centuries the knowledge was lost and now we have JCBs to do the job if we wanted to; a different approach to the problem. There was in fact quite a lot of technology around in the old days but most of it was based on wood and so hasn't survived and the printing press hadn't been invented so very few written records were made and of those only a few have survived.

Ancient Egypt did endure for thousands of years but the civilisation almost went belly up on several occasions. Eventually it was conquered by Alexander the Great and one of his generals, Ptolemy became Pharaoh and then a few hundred years later in the time of the last female Pharaoh/Queen Cleopatra, the country was was conquered by Rome. Rome lasted for 400 years or so and that went down as well. And so it goes.....

Of course the dinosaurs lasted for millions of years and there are enough of us left on Mayhem to ensure that there is hope for us yet.  {-) {-)

Colin
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malcolmfrary

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2009, 05:00:17 PM »

Tolkien's work was intended, according to himself, as a home made mythology using the various bits of folk tales from the various races that made up the population of the UK. 
Chariots of the Gods was a very successful attempt at gathering a critical mass of money into the authors bank account by a guy who couldn't afford a proper typewriter.  (Check it out - it seems not to have had a full stop, so he used the exclamation mark instead)
Mind, when they find that big black rectangular monolith........
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2009, 05:39:30 PM »

Tolkien's work was intended, according to himself, as a home made mythology using the various bits of folk tales from the various races that made up the population of the UK. 

Specifically, it was intended to provide a mythology for the English. He noted that most other races had a mythology, through which they celebrated their national identities, but the English did not seem to have one. The Germanic tribes and Scandinavians celebrated heroic struggle - Celtic mythology is full of magic and poetry, but the English seemed to be down-to-earth with no higher aspirations at all. Cf T H White, or see http://www.tolkien-online.com/tolkien-and-mythology.html

"..Tolkien had great interest, as he once wrote to a reader, “in mythological invention, and the mystery of literary creation”. As a scholar of mythology, Tolkien was also quite aware, as he went on to write in the same letter, that “[England] had no stories of its own, not of the quality that I sought, and found in legends of other lands”..."

So he drafted a mythology for the English. It told a story of a peaceful, inward-looking, rather pompous, class and family oriented race (the Hobbits/English) who nevertheless could rise to heroism of a high order when the situation demanded it, and who would then return to their little arguments about whose garden was better and what the neighbours were thinking. That is why the short coda at the end of the Lord of the Rings is there, why it is so important to the structure of the whole book, and why the recent film of the book ruins the entire work by leaving it out, on the grounds that there is no heroism and special effects in it.

I can't expect American Producers to understand literary structures - I think Saul Zaentz has a lot to answer for here, but I did hope for more from a Kiwi. I suppose it was pressure from New Line, though we must be thankful that Miramax did not fund it - they wanted a single film! Tolkein was right to refuse any film to be made of LOTR during his lifetime, no matter how rich he would have become...
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2009, 02:56:10 AM »

Specifically, it was intended to provide a mythology for the English. He noted that most other races had a mythology, through which they celebrated their national identities, but the English did not seem to have one. The Germanic tribes and Scandinavians celebrated heroic struggle - Celtic mythology is full of magic and poetry, but the English seemed to be down-to-earth with no higher aspirations at all. Cf T H White, or see http://www.tolkien-online.com/tolkien-and-mythology.html

"..Tolkien had great interest, as he once wrote to a reader, “in mythological invention, and the mystery of literary creation”. As a scholar of mythology, Tolkien was also quite aware, as he went on to write in the same letter, that “[England] had no stories of its own, not of the quality that I sought, and found in legends of other lands”..."

So he drafted a mythology for the English. It told a story of a peaceful, inward-looking, rather pompous, class and family oriented race (the Hobbits/English) who nevertheless could rise to heroism of a high order when the situation demanded it, and who would then return to their little arguments about whose garden was better and what the neighbours were thinking. That is why the short coda at the end of the Lord of the Rings is there, why it is so important to the structure of the whole book, and why the recent film of the book ruins the entire work by leaving it out, on the grounds that there is no heroism and special effects in it.

I can't expect American Producers to understand literary structures - I think Saul Zaentz has a lot to answer for here, but I did hope for more from a Kiwi. I suppose it was pressure from New Line, though we must be thankful that Miramax did not fund it - they wanted a single film! Tolkein was right to refuse any film to be made of LOTR during his lifetime, no matter how rich he would have become...
Just to make you cringe a little more Dodgy,..I noticed in the news this week, that Peter Jackson,is looking to screen test,John & Edward Grimes better known as "Jedward"for the parts of the twin Hobbits Fili & Kili in the film The Hobbit,i wonder who he will get to play,Bifur,Bofor,Bombur,Dori,Ori Nori,Oin, Gloin,Balin,Dwalin,and Thorin Oakenshield,  {-)

Wullie,
Three Rings fo the Elven Kings!.....under.
Seven for the Dwarf Lords!....in..
Nine for the Mortal Men!...doomed..
One for the Dark Lord!...on..
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2009, 12:13:27 PM »

"twin Hobbits"..Oops I meant say twin Dwarves, {-)

Wullie
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2009, 01:06:14 AM »

"twin Hobbits"..Oops I meant say twin Dwarves, {-)

Wullie

Thanks for the thought, Wullie. Alas, I don't come into contact with modern civilisation very much, so I know nothing of John & Edward Grimes, or their acting ability. I am much happier with earlier civilisations, and would, for instance, be on much firmer ground discussing aspects of Rohl's New Chronology with Colin than considering who is going to win some soccer game...
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Wasyl

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2009, 02:03:09 AM »

You,re absolutely right,I find London to be one of the loneliest cities on the planet,populated by some who still think they,re living in the middle ages,...and as for that Hard Water,....give me the water north of Hadrians anytime, %%

Wullie
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2009, 10:22:54 AM »

You're absolutely right,I find London to be one of the loneliest cities on the planet, populated by some who still think they're living in the middle ages...


Yup, these are two of its biggest attractions for me. 1610 rocks!

Though I agree with you about the water. Still, anything that has passed through so many other kidneys before you get to drink it must be fairly pure....
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2009, 10:49:14 AM »

Quote
1610 rocks!

Did you mean 1610 BC and Santorini?!

Yes, not altogether convinced by Rohl's new chronology but he makes an intriguing case and there certainly seem to be some major anomalies contained within the traditional interpretation.

Colin
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dreadnought72

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2009, 11:21:15 AM »

But recently I've been doing some reading about Fermi's Paradox. This lead me to read up on the Rare Earth hypothesis, von Nuemann and Bracewell probes. Wish I hadnt now! If you start reading up on these subjects, your faith (if that's the right word) in ET being out there somewhere must surely take a hammering.
The simplest answer to the negativity of where they are, if they exist, is the zoo hypothesis. The Earth's in quarantine, perhaps studied, perhaps not, by an advanced alien culture who know the damage that is done by advanced cultures meeting more backward ones like ours.

Andy
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dodgy geezer

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2009, 01:51:50 PM »

Did you mean 1610 BC and Santorini?!

Yes, not altogether convinced by Rohl's new chronology but he makes an intriguing case and there certainly seem to be some major anomalies contained within the traditional interpretation.

Colin

No - AD. I was actually thinking of the King James Bible translation. The most impresive document I have ever seen generated by committee. The standard of writing was so impressive at that time that, although Shakespeare was around then they didn't need to include him in the team....

I'm less interested in Minoan civilisation, more in the ongoing development and survival of Egyptian bureaucracy (which I think holds important lessons for us today!). What do you think is wrong with the New Chronology? The inconsistencies with the Mesopotamian timelines? It is so hard to keep up with all the required reading... 

 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #72 on: December 20, 2009, 03:15:36 PM »

Yes, it's very hard to keep up with things, especially when you are essentially a layman who is not in a position to either confirm or refute some of the more abtruse statements being made by both sides to support their positions. All you can do is stand on the sidelines and form a general impression. Mine is that there is still a lot to come out of the chronology argument and if it is eventually settled to the satisfaction of most people then, whatever the outcome, we are going to see some major reassessments of current assumptions which are likely to be very interesting indeed. The whole basis of the various eastern Mediterranean timelines are contingent to that of Egypt and that is far from firm in the view of many people, not just Rohl. maybe the best chance of a resolution does depend on the discovery and deciphering of more of the Mesopotamian records and it seems unlikely that much more will be derived from Crete in the form of written records.

My particular interests lie with Minoans and Mycenaeans and the Trojan War but I also enjoy reading about th Egyptians and other civilisations in the region including the discoveries associated with the flooding of the Black Sea. Also, the recent theories surrounding the real identity of Ithaca are fascinating.

Colin
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Netleyned

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2009, 03:55:33 PM »

Why should a non layman know any more or less than a layman
on this subject
At the end of the day it is only what people surmise
No one (R) no one Knows the real truth of any of it
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, beliefs and
thoughts.


Yours Aye

Ned O0
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justboatonic

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Re: There's no one out there!
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2009, 04:47:40 PM »

Fact is, we really don't know what the conditions for life are so saying 'well only so many planets orbiting certain kinds of stars can produce it' is fallacious.  Certainly, we can assume that our conditions, when replicated, could produce similarly advanced civilizations, but that doesn't mean they WILL and it doesn't mean civilizations could arise through other conditions.

Life is an incredible rarity if it exists outside Earth.  So far it seems only one of our nine planets supports ANY life, and it has taken millions of years for that life to reach the point where it was even able to form the mental concept of extraterrestrial life.  

The universe is like an enormous ocean and we are in a tiny boat in a storm, trying to hear the sound of someone else shouting. 

ZZ, this gets to the core of my original post. Nearly everyone comes from the angle of we dont know what conditions life can exist in or it would take hundreds if not thousands of years for our signals to reach another intelligence and for them to reply. I used to be of this latter hypothesis myself until I started properly researching the subject.

The test for intelligent life existing in the galaxy is not one of can we hear their signals as SETI has been doing for years. There is a far simpler method. And that is simple observation not of radio signals, but one for artefacts or objects.

The speed of light is a law of physics. FTL travel is not possible. If it were, we'd have evidence by now of not only other species within this galaxy travelling here there and everywhere, we'd also see evidence of travellers from outside our galaxy ie Andromeda and beyond. Wormhole travel is fine in theory but again, if it were possible, we'd see evidence of wormholes opening and closing in the galaxy. But we dont.

So we can confidently say there is no species which has the technology to travel faster than light nor create wormhole travel.

Our Milky Way galaxy is some 10+ billion years old. There are an estimated 200 - 400 billions stars in the galaxy. The majority of these are not even stars similar to our own. But even if they were, statistically at least, with the age of the galaxy, some intelligent species should have arisen. Some will have anihilated themselves, some may have been anihilated by a dinosaur killing asteroid.

If any had survived to be technically superior to ourselves, they would at least attempt to
harness the power of their sun ie build a dyson sphere
explore the galaxy in their own spacecraft or
spent out exploratory probes ie von Neumann probes or Bracewell probes.

If the galaxy is teeming with life and any such intelligence had of pre existed us by just one million years, we should easily be able to observe a structure such as a dyson sphere. In fact, if the galaxy is teeming with intelligent life older than us, we should see many, many dyson spheres in every corner of the galaxy. But we dont see a single one.

If the galaxy is teeming with older intelligent life, we should have been visited many many times by these explorers. Some people assume we dont see such evidence because they want to keep us at arms length because of our aggressive insular tendencies. But, if the galaxy is teeming with life, it only takes ONE lifeform to make itself known to us. And even if amongst all this teeming older intelligence, would they all be peaceful? There's a 50 \ 50 chance some would be aggressive expansionists so keeping us at arms length wouldnt be an issue for them. But we dont see a single instance of an older intelligent lifeform.

If the galaxy was teeming with older intelligent life, we should find plenty of evidence of von Neumann or Bracewell probes. But we havent observed a single such probe.

Taken all this empirical evidence (plus the lack of a single accepted SETI candidate signal despite 40 years of looking), we can conjecture we dont see any such evidence or aliens or alien artefacts because they dont exist right now.

If they dont exist right now, that means we are the oldest most technologically advance lifeform in the galaxy right now and there's no one out there.
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