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Author Topic: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!  (Read 11392 times)

Nordsee

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2010, 03:31:09 pm »

Wrong kind of Chunnel too. Wonder if the Alpine rail tunnels get stuck with "condensation in the electrics"  ...oh I was forgetting it is a different kind of condensation there. >>:-(
Just a thought, remember the Locos etc for the Chunnel are made by Siemans, which explains why they breakdown. The High Speed trains, (ICEs) in Germany are also built by Siemans, and the wheels fall off! The Tram system in Dusseldorf were designed and built by Siemans, of 45 vehicles only 16 are still running, they have had to bring the old Trams back. The Motorway Toll System was designed and built by Siemans, It was year late and cost 3 times the original quote and breaks down often- The power lines in North germany collapsed, wrong sort of snow. Same as the overhead power lines for the Railways, wrong sort of snow, which also prevented points from functioning, need I say more?
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oldiron

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2010, 04:09:39 pm »

 I agree with you "doggy". As I mentioned before, I worked for the electric power company in Ontario, Ontario Hydro. The company was a "crown corporation" of the Ontario government. The company's mandate from its inception in the 1920's was "power at cost". This was fulfilled right to the end. However, competing concerns such as the gas companies wanted to get in on Hydro's customer base. This was done by exaggerating Hydro's costs and inefficiencies and getting the government to spin off the company. When they did the British model of "privatizing" the company was followed. The public got sucked into believing private power production would be cheaper. Boy did they get a shock!. Now we have three separate companies for the supply of electricity; the "manufacturer, the high voltage transmitter, and the local transmitter, plus an overall referee to make sure the whole mess works together. Now there is a separate bill from each participating company.
  Ontario Hydro used to do major research and development in all things electrical. That is now handled on a piece meal and profit basis by who knows who.
  Now with things like wind farms, the public pays for half or more of the erection and operation of wind farms through their taxes and the rest through their bills. On top of that, governmental legislation has waved environmental assessment on all wind farms. The public has no say in when or where they will go, despite the fact various groups have been fighting them.
  As an illustration of the inability to get away from increased cost on utilities, the municipality below me, Durham Region, has announced an increase in water rates (urban areas have water meters here) because conservation has reduced the amount of water used. Can't win no matter what you do. Its all a scam I say.

John
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Howard Q

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2010, 05:49:19 pm »

We should not have to worry about fossil fuel replacement, there are elections every five years; with the amount of dinosaur's in Government there will be a plentifull supply. This includes the members of of my home Parliament.
Howard Q. :-)) ;)
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Jimmy James

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #53 on: January 11, 2010, 09:12:35 pm »

Derek
How many elected members of government when they retire have to depend on the state pentsion to live... Most seem to come out of the job millionairs... As for wind farm's The last time I was in Blythe One of the tower's had blown over and 2 or 3 others had shed blades --- The same goes for the one off Great Yarmouth Thousands of ton's of Swedish stone (whats wrong with British stone and if the job was done correctly why is it needed anyway ...Who got the backhander ) being dumped on the sea bed to keep the tides and currents from washing the foundations away... It's all a badly conceived poorly implemented CON!!! Basically a sop to the masses..
Freebooter >>:-( >>:-( >:-o <*<
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Nordsee

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2010, 11:25:41 am »

Derek
How many elected members of government when they retire have to depend on the state pentsion to live... Most seem to come out of the job millionairs... As for wind farm's The last time I was in Blythe One of the tower's had blown over and 2 or 3 others had shed blades --- The same goes for the one off Great Yarmouth Thousands of ton's of Swedish stone (whats wrong with British stone and if the job was done correctly why is it needed anyway ...Who got the backhander ) being dumped on the sea bed to keep the tides and currents from washing the foundations away... It's all a badly conceived poorly implemented CON!!! Basically a sop to the masses..
Freebooter >>:-( >>:-( >:-o <*<
Germany has more Wind Generators than any other country. Here are a few facts, They have a Service life of approx 40,000 hours. sounds a lot, but is roughly 8 years. As the Technology is changing (improving?) quickly, old Turbines are not economical to repair. so the blades are removed and the Tower left. Seems it costs more to take it down than to build a new one. Planning permission is only needed for the first one, after that they can sprout like mushrooms. German Government ignores the recommendations by EU as regards distance from habitation and nature reserves. (that is normal for Germany)
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2010, 01:06:57 pm »

Germany has more Wind Generators than any other country. Here are a few facts...

The most interesting facts would describe how much they cost to run and how much energy can be got out of them.

How much energy wind power can produce is a difficult question to answer.

- There will be a hypothetical ideal figure of total possible output assuming that an optimum wind blows all the time.
- There will be an assumed figure it will actually generate - usually about 30% of ideal.
- There will be the actual figure it generates - less than the assumed for a variety of reasons.
- Then there will be the actual commercial usable energy - that is, power generated when someone actually wants to buy it. While wind power is a small percentage of total power you can usually find a buyer for the energy, even if you need to ship it over to another country. And current laws require wind energy to be bought if it is offered. Once wind power starts becoming a bigger percentage of generated power it may not be possible to sell it at the time it is generated - this is less of an issue for conventional power generation since they can plan their output to match demand.

All these features of wind power get ignored by the political proponents of wind power, who tend to cite assumed figures rather than recorded ones...
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oldiron

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2010, 03:14:28 pm »

  I agree with your observations "dodgy". However, trying to track down actual output figures from various wind farms can be difficult to say the least. I've mentioned, previously, the web site of our own power dispatching system in Ontario and their constant display of wind power out put in Ontario. They give a small write up to wind power in Ontario and it contains this paragraph that should tie in with what you point out of the difference between designed and actual windmill output. As I write this, the output in Ontario for wind power is 121 MW on a clear sunny -8deg C day. Here is the paragraph from their site:

From month to month, wind output (the amount of energy actually produced compared to the amount the turbines are capable of producing given perfect conditions) can vary. In April 2009, the average wind output was 41 per cent of capacity, while in June it was 14 per cent, reflecting the fact that the summer months arenít as windy.

 Our windmills have a total installed capacity of 1100MW, but are only putting out 10% of their designed capacity due to lack of wind at the moment. The highest I've seen was during a storm before Christmas and the highest was about 75% of installed capacity. So as you can see, windmills are not the most efficient and cost effective means of producing electricity.

John
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2010, 03:38:49 pm »

 .... However, trying to track down actual output figures from various wind farms can be difficult to say the least......

From month to month, wind output (the amount of energy actually produced compared to the amount the turbines are capable of producing given perfect conditions) can vary. In April 2009, the average wind output was 41 per cent of capacity, while in June it was 14 per cent, reflecting the fact that the summer months aren’t as windy.

 Our windmills have a total installed capacity of 1100MW, but are only putting out 10% of their designed capacity due to lack of wind at the moment. The highest I've seen was during a storm before Christmas and the highest was about 75% of installed capacity.
John


Yup. What you have there are the ideal 'total installed capacity', which will never be achieved, and various spot figures for 'actual' generation. Spot figures are pretty useless, or course - what you need for costing is yearly averages, and if they don't give them you can bet that they're poor. The mean of the two figures you gave is 27.5% - I would guess that 20% actual or less is the yearly figure. It has become so standard to hide these poor figures that no one really comments about it....

But all this is insignificant besides the commercial use requirement - the energy must be available when you want to use it. So long as wind is a small input to the Grid, you can always turn down a coal-fired power station when the wind is generating, and sell the wind in instead. If wind were ever to become a large part of the Grid, this would not be possible.

In part, this is what a 'smart grid' is designed to handle. With this, we turn down the demand when the wind does not blow by rationing out the power. When customers begin to realise what this implies, I don't hold out much hope for its acceptance....
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oldiron

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2010, 04:05:02 pm »


Yup. What you have there are the ideal 'total installed capacity', which will never be achieved, and various spot figures for 'actual' generation. Spot figures are pretty useless, or course - what you need for costing is yearly averages, and if they don't give them you can bet that they're poor. The mean of the two figures you gave is 27.5% - I would guess that 20% actual or less is the yearly figure. It has become so standard to hide these poor figures that no one really comments about it....

I totally agree, the full design figure will never be achieved, and in fact, isn't being achieved. The web site gives hour by hour actual outputs of generation from the installed windmills. It is almost non existent many times.

But all this is insignificant besides the commercial use requirement - the energy must be available when you want to use it. So long as wind is a small input to the Grid, you can always turn down a coal-fired power station when the wind is generating, and sell the wind in instead. If wind were ever to become a large part of the Grid, this would not be possible.

Yes, you can adjust fossil to make up the difference. Indeed, that is what you have to do, however, I'm sure you know that large fossil units weren't designed for the large number of swings that can be realized to backup wind generation. Most fossil plants were designed as base load plants then pushed into the roll of "peaking" plants.  This is a tremendous wear ant tear on the equipment,especially the boilers. Tube failures become more prevalent under these conditions. Too, windmills have been touted as the great saviour of our planet, this isn't going to happen as long as there are fossil plants to pick up the pieces the windmills can't carry.

In part, this is what a 'smart grid' is designed to handle. With this, we turn down the demand when the wind does not blow by rationing out the power. When customers begin to realize what this implies, I don't hold out much hope for its acceptance....

  The "smart grid" is the way things should go if everyone was truly in on the "green" thing. However, we all know that only extends to the point it affects "me". At that point don't cut back my power. There are so many new electrical items in the household and in industry than even thirty years ago, and people rely on them so much more, that a realistic "smart grid" program would be extremely difficult to implement.
  This whole windmill thing is a complete false economy.

John
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #59 on: January 12, 2010, 05:13:33 pm »


  The "smart grid" is the way things should go if everyone was truly in on the "green" thing....


The "green" thing appears to be a belief that the amount of energy we used in the 1950s is the 'right' amount of energy to use - pro rata with other natural resources.

I don't know how they come to that conclusion. In 1850 the maximum power a typical human used at any one time was probably 1 Hp (if he was riding it!). By 1950 a typical commuter might use 20 Hp, by now a family saloon might be 200 Hp. If, say, we invent teleportation but it needed the output of a decent sized power station to operate, we might start placing sub-stations in everyone's back garden. I believe there is no theoretical limit to the energy an individual might use - just a practical limit enforced by the engineering of the day.

But that appears to be contrary to green thinking, where less energy use is seen as good in its own right...
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Nordsee

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2010, 09:17:48 am »

We have just been told, here in Germany, that they have a Contract to build a Mega Windfarm in the English Channel, 20kms from Hastings. Surplus power will be exported to Holland and France. A bit like when the Nuclear Stations at Dungeness, they used to export power to France as well.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2010, 11:23:57 am »

We have just been told, here in Germany, that they have a Contract to build a Mega Windfarm in the English Channel, 20kms from Hastings. Surplus power will be exported to Holland and France. A bit like when the Nuclear Stations at Dungeness, they used to export power to France as well.


Yes, as I indicated earlier it is critical for wind power facilities that they have somewhere to pass their power to, because they can only produce it when the wind lets them. So long as there are only a few wind facilities we will probably be able to find somewhere for the power to go, particularly if you put them in between three countries!

But the minute you get a larger number of wind power facilities it becomes impossible to place the power effectively. Wind power proponents do not reject wind because of this fundamental flaw, and argue that if you have 100% accurate wind and demand forecasting, the ability to turn off demand (smart grids), double up your reserve power generation and provide hydro storage (all at vast expense or beyond state or the art) then you might use more than 10-20% wind power.

From an engineering point of view this is madness, but I assume it sounds good in the corridors of power where maths is not a strong point....

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malcolmfrary

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2010, 12:07:43 pm »

If the power from wind farms is used to create hydrogen (many are standing in sea water) which can be relatively easily stored ready for use (anybody remember gasometers?) the problem of intermittent, relatively unpredictable matching of supply and demand could be managed.
Hydrogen is also a viable auto fuel, and I'm sure that somebody would find a use for the other by-product, oxygen.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2010, 12:36:23 pm »

If the power from wind farms is used to create hydrogen (many are standing in sea water) which can be relatively easily stored ready for use (anybody remember gasometers?) the problem of intermittent, relatively unpredictable matching of supply and demand could be managed.

Hydrogen is famous for being particularly difficult to store. It diffuses through most materials and reacts with them. At NTP it is high-volume, and compression/cryogenic storage exacerbate the chemical problems mentioned above. 

A lot of research is going on to try to find practical ways of storing hydrogen, but (apart from occasional instances where geology permits oil replacement by hydrogen) no one has found a satisfactory large-scale method. This is a major reason why we do not use hydrogen in the same way we use oil, or put it in gasometers...

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malcolmfrary

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2010, 04:52:25 pm »

Quote
This is a major reason why we do not use hydrogen in the same way we use oil, or put it in gasometers...
From what I recall of my chemistry lessons, (granted, 50 years ago) hydrogen was the main ingredient of town gas, that stuff we used to use before natural gas.
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Netleyned

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2010, 05:38:57 pm »

20 Kliks from Hastings will mean we will be importing
the windy amps It will be outside the 12 mile limit
and probably the same as building a wind farm on the M25


Yours Aye

Ned
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2010, 09:42:34 pm »

From what I recall of my chemistry lessons, (granted, 50 years ago) hydrogen was the main ingredient of town gas, that stuff we used to use before natural gas.

Indeed. And even at 50%, gas leakage was still a significant problem.

Hydrogen storage is not, of course, impossible, otherwise the Space Shuttle would have difficulty getting off the ground. But it is oddly low calorie per unit volume at NTP, making storage a very volume-consuming process unless you are prepared to compress and/or liquefy the gas. Gasometers would really have to be onshore for this reason, as the original poster suggested.

So we now have the vision of off-shore wind farms, connected to an onshore gas generating facility (which would look similar to a petrol refinery) and a gas storage facility (large gasometers), next to which would be a gas-fired power station. All this needs to be built because the wind cannot be relied upon to blow. The capital investment is now huge, and very uneconomic because you are not using the equipment continually at its most economic working level. It still has to be maintained and manned, of course.

Assuming you can get the planning permission to establish these stations round the country, the obvious question to ask is, "why don't we just use the gas-fired power station and not bother to build the rest?".



 

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allnightin

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2010, 11:20:12 am »

Assuming you can get the planning permission to establish these stations round the country, the obvious question to ask is, "why don't we just use the gas-fired power station and not bother to build the rest?".


How long do you think the gas is going to last if we did that?
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2010, 12:01:38 pm »

Quote
Assuming you can get the planning permission to establish these stations round the country, the obvious question to ask is, "why don't we just use the gas-fired power station and not bother to build the rest?"
.
How long do you think the gas is going to last if we did that?
And, of course, it doesn't irradiate the country for the rest of humanity's existence like the nuclear option or convert locked-away chemicals back into an unbreathable atmosphere like the earth had a few hundred million years ago.  The wind farm/gas option, cumbersome as it is, does have the ability to make the best possible use of a eminently renewable resource.  Apart from wind variation, most of the inefficiencies probably stem from regulating the output.
All of the "from nature" systems are not reliable on a minute by minute basis for producing the controlled electricity that we as consumers want.  Using the rough local product (unregulated electrical energy) to convert it into something storable and usable with existing technology to augment the existing supply will allow us to eke out the fossil material until someone clever has a better idea.  Look around.  Everything you see either is, or has a strong involvement with, a petrochemical product.  Just seeing how fast we can burn the stuff is not a good idea.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2010, 02:08:23 pm »

How long do you think the gas is going to last if we did that?

We ARE doing that. And the gas is lasting very well.

I have no desire to prolong this thread by presenting detailed engineering data to religious believers in alternative energy - comments that nuclear power will 'irradiate the country for the rest of humanity's existence' are obviously laughable - but I will say that the 'science' behind the AGW hypothesis is now being shown to be extensively hyped at best, and plain wrong in most cases.

And the interesting developments over the next year will not be in energy-generating technology, but rather on the political and financial fronts, as we consider how to reverse the pressure for a GBP 2 trillion global tax system, justified by the AGW hypothesis and administered by international bankers.... 
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oldiron

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2010, 02:55:27 pm »

  ""Doddgy" , just out of curiosity and not to be nosy, what is your background? You're obviously quite knowledgeable in the power industry.
 For myself, I worked in coal and oil fired power plants, nuclear power plants for over ten years and was an electrical system power dispatcher in the last 15 years of my employment.

John
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2010, 05:18:03 pm »

 
 ""Doddgy" , just out of curiosity and not to be nosy, what is your background? You're obviously quite knowledgeable in the power industry.
 For myself, I worked in coal and oil fired power plants, nuclear power plants for over ten years and was an electrical system power dispatcher in the last 15 years of my employment.


I had intended to write no more on this thread, but who could resist such an invitation?

My background? Well, it is odd. And parts of it are frankly unbelievable. For instance, for two years of my life I was a separate one-man Government Department in Whitehall...

My degree is in Medieval Literature and Philosophy, though my specialist subject is IT Security with, as our American friends would say, a 'major' in how to break things. Much of my working life I have spent, shall we say, associated with the intelligence services, though, now I come to think of it, there are few working sectors I have not been at least peripherally involved in. Regarding power distribution, I worked on the design of the British Energy power trading floor at Barnwood a couple of years ago, but I can make rude and objectionable comments from a position of having 'been there' about NHS hospital administration, F1 racing, several financial organisations, one legal organisation, the brewing industry and the BBC since then...

Very much a dodgy geezer, you will catch a glimpse of me hanging around most of the major disasters of the late 20th/early 21st centuries, usually hurrying off before any blame could be allocated. I have burnt my fingers on more 'nice little earners' than Arthur Daly, but I am particularly gratified that I have avoided being employed in any project that the last two administrations have dreamt up - there are some things that would sully even my reputation....


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Colin Bishop

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2010, 05:33:14 pm »

Quote
Very much a dodgy geezer, you will catch a glimpse of me hanging around most of the major disasters of the late 20th/early 21st centuries

And now, here you are on Mayhem  :o :o :o
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2010, 06:10:00 pm »

And now, here you are on Mayhem  :o :o :o


Indeed. And...

Oh dear, I find that I've just been suddenly called away - still, I am sure that everything will be fine - there will be no problems at all in running your servers from geothermal energy on top of that Icelandic volcano, and their financial difficulties are nothing to worry about at all....That's my cheque, is it..?

FX - sound of door slamming and rapidly departing footsteps....
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Nordsee

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Re: Mega wind farm for the Thames Estuary !!!
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2010, 11:22:22 am »

20 Kliks from Hastings will mean we will be importing
the windy amps It will be outside the 12 mile limit
and probably the same as building a wind farm on the M25


Yours Aye

Ned
I think they mean 20kms along the coast, ie Pevensy bay or Dungeness bay. the latter would be more sensible as there are still the connections to the Grid left from the Nuclear power Stations.
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