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[d-jnana]

Hi folks I'm sure this is a subject that has reared it's ugly head before, but it has been brought to mind again by me recieving my enhanced CRB today and trawling through this forum.
The mixture of old men and little boys seems now to raise eyebrows and set alarm bells ringing in social services offices. This upsets me greatly for two reasons:-
1. That there are people out there who for whateveer reason wish to harm our children.
and
2. That ALL old men (and I include myself in this) are under suspcion of being one of the above.
I wonder if this is a contributary factor in the hobby becomming an old mans pastime. Are clubs put off of accepting young members without parents present due to the litigation/accusation culture we seem to be living in? I recently read in RCM&E of a flying club down south who would not accept junior members because of this, despite ther being 3members who were CRB checked and approved. Now perhaps those individuals were not willing to take on the resposibility for the youngsters, I don't know. If that is the case then I could see a situation where only adults could join clubs, long after thier enthusiasm has wained.
Please tell me guys that this is not the case.
I would be willing to take on a junior section of a club, and mentor youngsters,. Perhaps then model boating would become a younger hobby.
Who knows.
Any comments?

[cbr900]

I don't know why they are worrying about that in model boating, when what they really need to clean up and out is the priest hood...............



Roy

[tigertiger]

I don't know why they are worrying about that in model boating, when what they really need to clean up and out is the priest hood...............



Roy

There are not that many Bishops in the boating world 


I am now placing my hands over my ears and waiting for a response. ::) :-\

[cbr900]

Tiger,

I'll bet you hear from one Bishop real soon..... ....



Roy

[MikeK]

If you do, give him a good bashing, Tiger   

MikeK

[maninthestreet]

Why do people keep banging Bishops? 

[RickF]

Didn't take long for that topic to get from serious to silly, did it?

d-jnana is right. In today's "sue everybody, I want compensation, someone else is to blame" society, is it any suprise that people are not prepared to make the effort, knowing that someone out there is just waiting for a chance to pounce on the slightest unintentional or unperceived error?

Rick

[d-jnana]

Roy I'm not going to get as contetious (check spelling later) as to mention the priesthood Roy. I do however think that ther are areas other than model clubs that need to be cleaned up agreed(dib dib dib)(takes cover and prepares to be attacked by Baden Powel).
The question is though does the question of police checks CRB, insurance issues etc limit club membership?
Perhaps ther are some club secrataries out there who could answer that, and give the club line?

[Roger in France]

I do not think we should get paranoid about police checks etc. it is my direct experience, as a former Chairman of Governors in a very large school (where I was not just a cypher as so many Governors are), that such checks take forever to put in place, the police cannot give them high priority and they do not prevent anything.

If you apply simple,commonsense you will achieve a very great deal. Ensure children are never left alone with just one adult, in private. Be aware of an adult who seems to want to isolate a child. It is also in the adults interest as I have been aware of two cases where a disturbed child falsely accused an adult when no witnesses were present.

Finally, at the risk of being called "politically correct", avoid all chat (no matter how harmlessly meant) which denigrates others or groups. So folk that means cut out such references as "women drivers"..." kids with hoods"..." boy racers" etc. If we give everyone the respect they are due then it becomes easy to spot those who do not deserve respect.

I now invite those so minded to screen previous posts from me and come up with instances where I have not "practised what I preach". I did say "avoid".

Roger in France.

[HS93 (RIP)]

Roger did you work for "LOCAL GOVERMENT" by any chance??  Model boats should be fun !!!

[Colin Bishop]

I dunno! I just go out for a few hours and when I get back everyone is casting aspersions on my antecedents!  

I do think the whole thing has got too politically correct and agree with comments in the serious posts above but I think there are two things here. One is the issue of protecting children from predatory adults, the other is being in "loco parentis". In the first instance common sense, as Roger points out, should reduce the risk to negligible proportions in a model boating club environment. However, if little Johnny falls into the lake and is eaten by a swan then liability issues could certainly arise. I agree that people are too frequently unwilling to accept that accidents happen and insist that somebody must be to blame. Unfortunately that seems to be the culture we live in these days. A lot of the things I used to do as a kid, climbing trees, damming streams, dropping penny bangers onto the river would be unthinkable these days - but we seemed to survive somehow and certainly learned the nature of risks!

[Roger in France]

Of course model boating is fun.

My point was that casual attitudes or unthinking attitudes are the start of the slippery slope. We can have fun and a laugh without making someone or some group the butt of our humour.

Well, Colin Bishop I usually agree with you but not all you said above. I certainly climbed trees and took huge risks as a kid, I also stole apples and other minor crimes but I had parents who corrected me. Again, my experience is littered with parents who never correct their children and even defend them when they are clearly in the wrong. Playing with fireworks for example: you said "...we..." were OK. Sadly I know two "we's" who were not and so I support steps to make fireworks safer.

Life is complex and society is difficult to protect. Knowing when "protecting" becomes "sheltering" is far from easy. I shudder at the simplistic solutions folk come up with for societies ills with little grasp of the problem or the ramifications of their "cure".

OK, OK I will climb off my soapbox (do you think I could fit it with a motor and a rudder?) I will not add further to this thread.

Roger in France.

[OneBladeMissing]

On the other hand .... if parents don't want their kids to come into contact with older people at model clubs, at least we don't have to tolerate the little *%£$&+$ !
By the way, isn't it a fact that the majority of child abusers come from the same family as the abused?

[d-jnana]

I agree with many things Roger said about common sense. I am actually a teacher, and have been accussed of an assault in a corridor with no witnesses. Fortunately covered by CCTV, all was well. Scary though.
As to tolerating kids. C'mon, we need the "little *%£$&+$!" without them the future of the hobby dies?????????????
And yes I also took risks, scrumped apples floated bangers, got marched home by the village bobby, and I like many of my generation accept that accidents do happen. Perhaps that is why I still cave, climb, coast stear, canyon, hike in winter, and ride my bike on the road. It is a claculated risk, but with the correct equipment, and knowledge the risks are minmal.
That is the way I feel it should be.
YOU GUYS?

[grasshopper]

It seems to me that  once again this country is giving more reasons to upsticks and move away....

The biggest problem with children is the parents. Somewhere down the line, we have lost sight of the fact that what is taught to children, preschool,  by their parents is what sets them up for the rest of their lives - by the time they reach school age they should have been taught the rights from the wrongs, they should have been taught respect and obedience. The teachers at school then only have to reinforce those values.

Where hobbies and the like are concerned, people have to realise that parental support is paramount - not only to encourage the hobby / sport, but also as guardian whilst they're participating - so many parents drop the child off at whatever and leave them there, expecting them to be looked after, or fend for themselves. Then when something bad happens, it's somebody else's fault.

Today's news regarding ASBO's - typical of this modern age - been 'naughty' ? awarded an ASBO - where punishment is concerned, pain helps focus the mind. Got an ASBO? should be made to do menial work to benefit the community - there's always litter that needs picking and graffitti that needs covering up. There is far too much 'spare the rod and spoil the child' - that's why a lot of them turn out rude and evil!

[Colin Bishop]

Very good points Grasshopper. The buck should certainly stop with the parents. I've got two super daughters and they have been brought up in a loving home and taught right from wrong. as a result they are good honest citizens and I am very proud of them. Sadly I feel that my circumstances seem to be the the exception rather than the norm. There are too many one parent families and people think it is OK. Well, I'm afraid I don't think it  is. I believe that kids need two parents to bring then up properly and keep them on the straight and narrow.

Roger, sorry if I appeared to condone messing about with fireworks. I don't. It was what we did at the time. These days I firmly believe fireworks should be confined to organised displays. Much safer and enjoyable for everyone. And by the way, don't apologise for your contributions, they are appreciated - well, by me anyway!

[Shipmate60]

I dont know of anyone who leaves their child at a model boat club.
Its usually the dad who ends up "playing" with the model boat anyway.
I would certainly have words with any parent that left their child at a model boat club to be baby sat.
But as I have said I have just never known it.

Bob

[cbr900]

I think the biggest problems with the kids of today are the simple fact that they are no longer taught any respect, by parents or by the schools, the police can no longer kick you up the bum and send you home so where do they learn any respect, it all comes back to political correctness, yes I do agree that to continually belt a kid is harmful and should be stopped, but in my opinion a smack or two when they are little means that they do start to learn respect from parents, and bring back the caine it never really did any damage to us but you learnt eventually, as for the amount of toys and rubbish that kids get given now days is ridiculouis, they have no idea how to have fun, just know how to be destructive cheeky little twerps...........



Roy

[grasshopper]

Colin, it doesn't matter if there is only one parent, as long as it's a good parent with enough time and patience to do the right things. Sometimes it would be easier with just one 'grown-up', there would be less argument over who's right!

Bob, not only at the waterside, but also at a past indoor racing venue have I seen people bring kids down and ask what time would the last person leave, some have even asked if somone would stay until they got back...and Yes they were told !

d-jnana, just read your posting - I couldn't do your job, I'd be arrested within a month - more power to your elbow.
I agree that youth is the future, and I do try to encourage as many as I can, but a lot of the time even if the kid is interested, without their parent/s to support (financially as well as in time) you are on a hiding to nothing.

[Colin Bishop]

Grasshopper, I don't disagree that a child can be brought up well in a one parent family with the appropriate love and attention. Obviously many parents may find themselves in that situation, often through no fault of their own, and I readily applaud their efforts to give their child a normal upbringing which is frequently successful. I still don't think it matches the situation you get in a stable marriage where the child can learn from both it's mother and it's father. A child deprived of either is a child disadvantaged in my viiew. Ok so I'm old fashioned!  :)

[grasshopper]

Old fashioned's good Colin, one, two, no matter, as long as they do their best.

I look back at my kids ( and my own childhood ) , cycling proficiency, swimming badges, 11+, GCE / GCSEs, A levels, University, moped & car licences, food catering-  tests for everything - things that are for not only personal advancement but tests where one is responsible for the safety of others.

Where's the test before you can become a parent ? - probably not very P.C. - but in some cases wouldn't it be a good idea? There are so many kids out there born to people who are no more than children themselves.

[sweeper]

Having read the previous contributions to this thread, I would like to add my few thoughts.
The real losers in all of this are the youngsters who, through no fault of their own, are often being deprived of the chance of learning from older people who have much experience in many areas that they are willing to pass on. So why don't the "oldies" do it?

From my own experience, the hoops that have to be jumped through in order that you may be classed as being "safe" to work with young people will deter many otherwise willing people.
Having been given a police clearance when the scheme started (mid 70's, I think), I was allowed to work in Further Education with students ranging from 16 to 60+. Yes, there is a great deal of satisfaction to be gained from seeing the progress of any student, but even more from seeing a youngster becoming skilled in certain areas.
As we spent a lot of time in workshop conditions there was always a problem with the "we know it all" of the youngsters, in truth they didn't know enough to know how little they knew! How some of them managed to even cross a road safely baffles me. But what do I know? Having been told several times that I was just "an old man" who was passed working for a living, I agree that some of these little people need (and received - big time) a lesson in manners. They could never understand how, for the first time in their lives, someone would take them to task for their very poor behaviour. Obviously it had never happened at home or school.

Having left full time work, I was invited to take part in a scheme to introduce school children into engineering in a local school. Great idea, worked well, very enjoyable for all concerned. Then the p.c. stuff started. Forms were sent out to register for clearance (again?). I took one look at them and binned them. Do I need all of that hassle after over 30 years of doing the job? The losers? In my opinion, everyone.

There are some great youngsters out there who, given a bit of encouragement, would take up all these various interests. Sadly, the system imposed to protect them may just be the very means of depriving them of the chance to do so.

Regards,

[Shipmate60]

We all know great youngsters, at least our own children/grandchildren.
Unfortunately we have arrived at the point where you cant say much to strange children.
I certainly don't now and I am no shrinking violet.
It does however seem a shame as has been mentioned before, because it is the youngsters who are the losers.
While they are at home it is not such a great problem, but there is a steep learning curve for most who still want to work and get on in life.
Those that don't will stay as they are and become obnoxious adults. And the worst part about it is, obnoxious adults with no aspirations, or even hope of aspirations.
It just seems such a waste.
And IT IS ALL OUR FAULT for allowing this to happen.

Bob

[chromedome]

D-djanana......what is coast-stear??  [or anybody who knows]


chromedome

[cbr900]

Has there been any instances of child abuse by a model boater in England that anyone knows of, as I have never heard of any in my neck of the woods, we are allowed to have kids in a club situation whether there are parents around or not, and if they are doing the wrong thing they soon get told what to do or else, but that is a rarity most kids that come to our dams lakes or ponds  usually behave as they have come there for the boats.
And there is as yet no checks of any kind required to be with young people as I guess we are not as politically correct as you seem to be over there, and we do not want to be.......


Roy