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Author Topic: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?  (Read 9159 times)

The Antipodean

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Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« on: January 05, 2010, 10:55:20 pm »

Before I start asking some questions I would just like to point out how steam is evil and can draw a person in faster than any drug known to man. I read a few threads, asked a few question and then spent 9 hours searching the web looking for steam plants that wouldn't bankrupt the average man.

The question I have is about the following steam tug (conversion) I have discovered that will fit in with the scale I work with.

The question I have is regarding the size engine that would work better for this model.
The original ship is 54'Lx13'Bx6'D, which would end up as 40.5"x 9.75 x 4.5, would the Gage VR1A have the power to move this at scale speed or would I have to go up to the TVR1A?

Also, I have looked at a lot of boilers and the ones I like the best are from Maccsteam, but which would be the better size for these engines? I know they have a lot of information on the site but at this point I have no idea of what figures go with these engines.

At this point SWMBO is liking the idea of me being able to build a steam tug for under $1000(US) but after looking at all of the fittings required it seems that could be a low end estimate.

ANy advice would be appreciated as I could go the route of my teenage son and say it is all the fault of the steam fans as they got me hooked.
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gondolier88

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2010, 11:09:02 pm »

First of all- good subject choice! I like Barking- however you do know she was originally diesel and was converted (in the 70's?) to steam. Not to worry- but that does open your options up regarding hull choice if you wanted to buy a hull.

TVR1A In my opinion mate, with a 3.5" horizontal boiler, possibly 4"- steadier steamer, lasts longer on the water, but it's upto budget really.

Keep looking on different sites, AND READ THROUGH ALL THE THREADS IN THIS SECTION, ok realistically you probably won't READ them all, but just scan them, you will instantly become half a steam engineer!!!

Keep us posted, and keep asking questions.

Good look.

Greg
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The Antipodean

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 11:26:49 pm »

I have been reading, steam is very addictive, my wife has already been making comments.

The hull will be scratch built, plank on frame with glass layup inside and this time out, to make it a little stronger and a little more heat resistant.

The main reason for choosing the Barking is my fleet is 1:16 scale and she will fit in nicely, not too long and fairly easy to handle dockside.

I have been researching like mad and until I got to the formulas at Maccsteam I thought I was doing well.

More questions now.

I am going to use the TVR1A engine with the 3.5" boiler, budget restraints, with a 2 1/2" gas tank and a few extras from Mainsteam (Condenser, regulator and lubricator)

Would something like this setup need a water tank or is that just something used to extend the running time and would the extra time it provides make up for the extra cost?

It looks like I will be using a brass 60mm 3 blade prop.
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kusuchi

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2010, 02:57:05 am »

Whilst not the greatest expert on the forum, if budget is a factor, I would be inclined to avoid the water tank and the associated expense of the boiler feed pump.

Much has been said in favor of the four bladed propeller, but I will let more knowledgeable members speak to that.

The TVR1A is certainly one of the best bangs for the buck today.  I'm sure it will provide more than enough power for your project.

Best of Luck,

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The Antipodean

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2010, 03:09:43 am »

Thanks for the advice folks, very helpful and it does make it a lot easier when it comes to making choices.

The 3 blade prop is to keep the model as authentic as possible, something I try to do with each one I build, if my welding was up to scratch I would build them all out of steel, sadly I have let myself fall behind in that area.

I do have an advantage as I can get my engine from the manufacturer as he is in America and the price is not too bad at US$245, it will only get really pricey when it comes to the boiler and accesories as the best ones I have seen come from England.

This project is great because I can build the boat before I get the plant and have it all ready for when the important parts get here. There is also 3 other builds I am working on, 2 with cutting for the hulls (Plashy and MT Major)and one is still in the research stage (Te Hauraki).
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2010, 09:51:26 am »

A water tank is a very personal choice but, as you've realised, you have to plan for it before the build.

Options are basically as follows:

Gravity fill the boiler:  This is the simplest method of operating the plant and means that once the water in the boiler has been used it has to be vented off, refilled through a funnel and brought up to pressure again.  This has the advantage of being a simple plant but means you waste a lot of energy every time you vent off the steam pressure and so uses more gas than necessary, which then generates additional cooling of the gas tank.  You can offset these effects by burning liquid from the gas tank, using a larger boiler to give you more capacity and being careful with speed to conserve the water.  If you have a very simple plant though and no control over the burner you are forced into going fast enough to use the steam to prevent the safety valve from lifting, another huge waste of energy.

Externally pressure fill the boiler:  You can bring the model to the bank, connect up an external tank and pump and fill the boiler under pressure.  This is a bit of a messy process but a huge improvement over filling by gravity.  It saves venting off the pressure but you have to connect and disconnect the filling pump every time.

On board tank with manual pump:  This has the advantage of having the pump permanently connected so all you have to do is open the filling valve and operate the pump.  You then have additional piping and the feed tank to incorporate into the build but the feed tank doen't have to be filled until you want to fill the boiler so it shouldn't have to effect displacement.

On board tank with engine driven pump: Saves having to pump manually but the three way valve can only be manually set so differences in model operation can ultimately affect the boiler level.  The pump does only run when the engine is running so there is a degree of control there and the idea being if you get the position of the three way valve just right it will fil the boiler as the water is being used by the engine.  More complex piping and more expense in buying the pump as well as limiting the engine choice to the ones that can have a feed pump attached.  The feed tank must also be filled so there are displacement considerations and the pump is taking power from the engine so there could be a slight loss of performance.

On board tank with engine driven pump and automatic feed valve:  The ultimate in feed systems in so far as it can be left to do the job automatically.  The pump runs with the engine, or can even be electrically driven, and the three way valve position is controlled by a level sensor on the boiler.  Expensive and complicated and the feed tank must be filled but the most efficient as far as the boiler operation is concerned.


For myself I went for an on board tank with a manual pump.  To me this is a reasonable compromise of complexity and convenience and suits the operation I envisage of bringing the boat into the bank every half an hour to fill the lubricator, empty the condenser, fill the boiler and fill the gas tank.  If you don't go for an on board tank I would recommend that you use an external tank and pump rather than have to go through the wastefull process of venting off the boiler and having to raise pressure again.
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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2010, 10:06:00 am »

Bunkerbarge, can you tell me how often you have problems with your gas supply freezing and what make of system it is that causes it ? I have found this to be a very very rare problem on a properly set up system. and I have large and small systems, and uses them in all temperatures.


Peter
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2010, 10:47:44 am »

I don't have any problems with gas tanks over cooling as I've put things in place to prevent it however it is a possible effect that should be considered when designing a plant.

I've never actually talked about tanks or gas supplies freezing as that is such an extreem situation you would never actually get there. 
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Underpressure

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2010, 10:52:35 am »

Given the size of the model, I would have thought an on board tank was a bit of an unnecessary complexity. I have several tugs around that size and have never needed a tank. I have also never used any form of gas control (other than manual intervention), as I tend to heat up the boiler to pressure before launching, and then back the gas right off when running. The occasional run close by the bank will show me how pressure is holding up; if things are getting a little low, a quick stop to nudge the gas up is all that's needed and the reverse if too much steam is being generated. This system has worked for me for many years and is pretty much what we did for the 24 hr race.

On the 24 hr boat (Endurance), we did have an external hand pump and tank. This allowed us to pump hot water straight into the boiler at every pit stop and meant we were back on the water in about five minutes, with the boiler back up to working pressure after about 2 laps of the course, say five minutes. We also removed the gas tank and refilled it at each stop (we may have had two tanks, I don't remember). We used a standard Cheddar tank and had no cooling issues at all, even at 3am when it was raining >:-o

I like to keep my steam plants as simple as possible. As I have said before, the less there is, the less there is to go wrong. KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Neil
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The Antipodean

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2010, 01:19:56 pm »

Would something like the Bix Automatic Boiler Pressure Regulator be a good thing to use?

http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm

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Underpressure

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2010, 01:49:46 pm »

Would something like the Bix Automatic Boiler Pressure Regulator be a good thing to use?

http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm



I was thinking of using one on my Muimota tug, as it has a V4 engine and big boiler so it will be using quite a lot of steam. It wouldn't do any harm and it performs exactly the same function as the old Cheddar GAV (Gas Attenuator Valve), I just hope it's not as sensitive to set up.

Neil
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kno3

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2010, 12:03:40 pm »

Would something like the Bix Automatic Boiler Pressure Regulator be a good thing to use?

http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm



I have this unit and it works very well, it is also easy to adjust and quite small (space-saving).
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The Antipodean

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Re: Gage VR1A or TVR1A for Barking tug?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 04:21:40 am »

After doing some research, and reading nearly every post in the steam forum, I have found what I think is a more suitable plan to use.

At 1:16 scale this ship would be 49.5"x12" (66'5'x16')

It is originally a diesel mission ship used to gather converts and has been converted to a kayak charter vessel.
For anyone interested these plans are available for free, and they are not small, at this address  http://www.mothershipadventures.com/Columbia_III/Columbia.htm

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