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Author Topic: Falklands Oil Row  (Read 19002 times)

Colin Bishop

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2010, 12:22:04 pm »

Paul,

Yes, that does actually ring some bells. The reason I posted is that I knew that Broadsword's Seawolf had locked up but a naval source recently commented to me that the tactical error was Coventry's for not allowing Broadsword to act as primary defending ship with her more modern system. I suppose it just shows how perceptions get scrambled over the years but certainly you ought to know if anyone does!

Cheers,

Colin 
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allnightin

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2010, 02:17:52 pm »


In this instance we can see first woodward's decision to offer Coventry and Broadsword(?) as sacrificial lambs was nothing short of treasonable and second, if Broadsword(?) hadnt of interupted Coventry's missle lock may have had a fighting chance.

Sorry justboatonic,  but the Task Group Commander is not there to be pink and fluffy and nice to everyone - he has to decide how to achieve his overall mission and ordering people into places of danger is part of the job and in this case was intended to take pressure off the more vulnerable ships includin virtually defenceless STUFT at San Carlos.  The T42/T22 combination had had better sucess than the older weapon systems on the warships in San Carlos so it was an understandable decision given the very limited options he had at the time.  It would have been "treasonable" if he hadn't taken that sort of decision.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2010, 05:50:49 pm »

It was a little more complicated than that. The Argentines had effectively been promised the islands by the FCO, who had wanted to get rid of the Falklands for years, so there was no political will from them. There was initially no support from Nott, who had just about persuaded Thatcher that there was little that could be done when Sir Henry Leach brought her on side and got her to give the ok. Technically, it was the wrong decision - the task force was not up to the job on paper, with no top radar cover, and inoperable radar close to land. But the Navy has a tradition of ignoring the rules and going for it - in this case it paid off. To give her her due, Thatcher took her political decision and stuck to it. Our lack of early warning radar cost a lot of lives and equipment.

But what I meant about jumping the gun was that the Argentines had some new frigates and subs on order, which would have been delivered in a year or so. They were waiting for their next delivery of Exocets, and they had very few in stock. Britain was in the process of getting rid of its amphibious and carrier capability. A year's wait would have meant that the Argentines were far better equipped, while we would not have been able to raise a Task Force...   
Sorry, but your statement that the FCO "had been wanting to get rid of the Falklands" just isn't true. I would agree with you if you'd said "commercially interested" people wanted to get out. Prior to 1982 the Falklands were effectively a fiefdom run and controlled by a couple of UK families that just "wanted out" (at a profit). I have had a few (perhaps 6) conversations with Rex Hunt (the then Governor, who is not apparently your Forum member who posts under the same name!). He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO. It was the FO who wanted shot of the islands, not the FCO. The "Kelpers" are very loyal to the UK and deserve our support. With any luck they will escape the shameful episode that befell the inhabitants of Diego Garcia. BY.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2010, 05:52:26 pm »

It was very considerate of the FAA to attack our picket AA ships. We didn't mind losing destroyers half as much as we minded losing units like the Atlantic Conveyor. Remember that the whole point of the expedition was to land an effective infantry force and retake the islands, not to engage in a naval battle. Using bombs on non-vital targets was one of the few FAA mistakes - if they had been able to hit our supplies harder the mission would have been much closer to failing...
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2010, 06:00:48 pm »

Sorry, but your statement that the FCO "had been wanting to get rid of the Falklands" just isn't true.... He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO. It was the FO who wanted shot of the islands, not the FCO.

Sorry? Who do you refer to as the FCO?
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2010, 07:07:46 pm »

Sorry, but your statement that the FCO "had been wanting to get rid of the Falklands" just isn't true.... the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO. It was the FO who wanted shot of the islands, not the FCO.

For the avoidance of doubt, the FCO stands for 'Foreign and Commonwealth Office', and has done since 1968. So as far as I can see, you are saying that it wasn't the Foreign Office that wanted to get rid of the Falklands, it was the Foreign Office?

You may be thinking of the Falkland Islands Company, the major economic force in the islands? They would be the FIC, or FIH for Falkland Island Holdings, but I don't think they are usually referred to in this way....
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Bryan Young

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #56 on: February 22, 2010, 08:54:09 pm »

For the avoidance of doubt, the FCO stands for 'Foreign and Commonwealth Office', and has done since 1968. So as far as I can see, you are saying that it wasn't the Foreign Office that wanted to get rid of the Falklands, it was the Foreign Office?

You may be thinking of the Falkland Islands Company, the major economic force in the islands? They would be the FIC, or FIH for Falkland Island Holdings, but I don't think they are usually referred to in this way....
The then Governor of the Falklands (Sir Rex Hunt) was an "employee" of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and as such the Foreign Office was generally treated as an adverary rather than a partner.
The Falkland Islands Company were not so much a force as an obstruction to the development of the Islands. In effect they effectively  made the islands an old fashioned "company town", and when the "owners" decided to quit the place there was no obvious buyer....so it became political. BY.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2010, 09:42:20 pm »

The then Governor of the Falklands (Sir Rex Hunt) was an "employee" of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and as such the Foreign Office was generally treated as an adverary rather than a partner.

Um..I'm still confused. You said that:

"He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO."

and the FCO IS the FO....
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Bryan Young

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2010, 10:26:28 pm »

Um..I'm still confused. You said that:

"He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO."

and the FCO IS the FO....
Stop being silly and word twisting.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2010, 11:28:27 pm »

Stop being silly and word twisting.


Sorry - I really can't understand. The UK Foreign Office changed its name to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in 1968. They are the same entity. FO and FCO are the same body.

So when you say:

"He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO."

that really doesn't make any sense to me....
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Bryan Young

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2010, 05:59:52 pm »


Sorry - I really can't understand. The UK Foreign Office changed its name to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office in 1968. They are the same entity. FO and FCO are the same body.

So when you say:

"He was always adamant that the FCO and the Foreign Office had different priorities, and everything the FCO stood for would be opposed by the FO."

that really doesn't make any sense to me....

Sorry.....Now I come to think of it, Rex Hunt was one of the "Colonial" Officers that were absorbed into what became the FCO. Apologies for my error. But even so, the ex-Colonial contingent and their new masters were by his (Hunt) account, they were constantly...in a nice diplomatic way of course, at each others throats.
Although the Argentinians have declared having no interest in "blockading" the islands (probably means can't) their statement doesn't seem to have stopped what'shis name of Venezuela putting in his pennyworth. BY.
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The Antipodean

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2010, 06:11:48 pm »

I saw on the news this morning that drilling has started, should be interesting to see what comes of it.
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2010, 06:25:59 pm »

argentina invading maybe, seizing the drill ship like pirates
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The long Build

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2010, 06:28:46 pm »

I saw on the news this morning that drilling has started, should be interesting to see what comes of it.

I would Imagine absolutely Nothing...
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Ghost in the shell

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2010, 06:31:17 pm »

we hope! though i think they'll try and seize the ship, arrest the crew for treason, and have them imprisonned in a argy jail for 40 years
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Roger in France

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2010, 06:32:47 pm »

"....what comes of it...." the fact that drilling takes place or the likelyhood of finding oil?

Roger in France.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2010, 09:13:46 pm »

But even so, the ex-Colonial contingent and their new masters were by his (Hunt) account, they were constantly...in a nice diplomatic way of course, at each others throats.

Ah... now I see where you are coming from. My apologies for not realising sooner. You were saying that the local FCO people on the ground knew what was happening, but that the mandarins in King Charles Street rejected their advice. That is perfectly correct. I'm afraid I have only dealt with Whitehall staff, and so my view of the FCO is rather coloured...

As I think I indicated earlier, I worked at the Northwood Command and Control Headquarters at this time, and was well placed to view a lot of the politics, including everyone on the intelligence side rapidly back-pedalling... The classic example of this kind of thing, of course, is Craig Murray, our former ambassador to Uzbekistan, who got into a lot of hot water telling FCO things about Islom Karimov they didn't want to hear. I am sure the same fate would have awaited anyone who tried to force the FCO to lay a half-way decent intelligence appreciation in front of the JIC before the Argentine invasion.....
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Jonty

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2010, 09:21:10 pm »

  To go back to the beginning of the thread, we would never have retaken the Falklands without the wholehearted support of the US military. They provided intelligence and weapons throughout. We would have run out of AAMs inside a week. That's why Weinberger received an honorary knighthood.
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DARLEK1

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2010, 09:38:55 pm »

Yes indeed they did, but, there is something that I know that has still yet to be released into the public domain and it would drop alot of high power people in the pooh and also myself if I posted it on here.

 Lets just say the US did more than just supply weapons.

 Paul...
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2010, 10:04:06 pm »

You mean they SUNK THE BELGRANO?  :o :o :o
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DARLEK1

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2010, 10:07:17 pm »

Give it a rest eh?
Paul...
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Perkasaman2

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2010, 10:36:54 pm »

Could the owners of the drilling rig legally mount defensive weapon on the platform in international waters? Let's say, a pair of bolt on 'goalkeeper' type weapons to deter a surface attack?
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BarryM

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2010, 11:26:49 pm »

Why attack it? Drilling Units are thirsty beasts consuming not only fuel and victuals but well casing, drill bits, drill collars, drilling muds, cement, perforating explosives and other exotica that only a driller could name. Supplying a single Unit remotely when none of the neighbouring ports will entertain your supply vessels is bad enough and means a long supply chain to the Falklands. If oil is actually found in commercial quantities and fixed platform(s) or floating production vessel(s) are needed on location then your logistics headache - and thus your costs - can only increase. 

If you do start commercial production, how do you get it to shore? Pipelaying in those waters would not be the easiest job and perhaps no South American country within range would permit landfall of the pipe and construction of the onshore storage/processing facility. That means landfall would have to be on the Falklands themselves requiring tankers to ship it out to the nearest friendly country - USA? South Africa? If a pipeline is not feasible then a FPSO will be needed (more costs - more logistics problems) and a shuttle tanker fleet for a very weather dependent operation.

Oil companies are not fools; they will have figured out all of the above and done their sums and, so far, it must look a reasonable bet or operations would not have started. However, the Earth's crust is peppered with wells that have been expensively drilled and then plugged and abandoned because either the hole is 'dry' or the quantities found are uneconomic.

My point is that Argentina and their supporters would not necessarily have to go anywhere near the drilling operations to stifle it, they could simply deny port access to the logistics back-up and wait to see if the economic arguments finish it off.

My apologies to all the Gung-ho types who want to smell cordite but you may be disappointed.

Barry M
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The Antipodean

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2010, 11:50:16 pm »

"....what comes of it...." the fact that drilling takes place or the likelyhood of finding oil?

Roger in France.

I was looking at whether there would be anything happen at all. Most of the time international "incidents" are sorted out diplomatically and most of what comes to the top is mostly speculation and minor hysteria by the modern media. I doubt either country would be wanting an armed conflict of any kind and surely both know that the cost isn't worth it.
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w3bby

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Re: Falklands Oil Row
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2010, 11:54:48 am »

  To go back to the beginning of the thread, we would never have retaken the Falklands without the wholehearted support of the US military. They provided intelligence and weapons throughout. We would have run out of AAMs inside a week. That's why Weinberger received an honorary knighthood.
We would never have retaken the Falklands without the dogged determination, blood, sweat and tears of the men on the ground, at sea and in the air. BBC did their best at providing intelligence to Argentina.
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