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[pipercub1772]

hi guys ,help required filling a gas tank, i have always used a100ml disposable gas tank in the past but decided to go for a refillable one instead ,i got myself a 200ml gas tank from maccsteam and i have i  must admit a rather old gas tank filler i connected this to a 450ml can of propane/butane and attempted to fill ,held this on for about 30 seconds just cracked open the on off valve as i thought  this may help , liquid started spluttering out of the ronson valve after 30 seconds  so thought it may be full although no liquid could be heard upon shaking the tank although plenty in the 450ml disposable .fired up and she lasted approx 15 minuets so obviously not full , is it normall for it to dispel liquid when filling  and is it the liquid that needs to enter the refillable gas tank  ,this all sounds really bassic stuff but never having any used this method before any help would be very much appreciated ,i have read allote off the threds on here but not much on the actual filling , thanks allan

[HS93 (RIP)]

yes they can do that is why you NEVER fill in a boat or coffined area, there should be no need to open the outlet when the gas is going in. they are a bit off a messy thing but if you ever refill refillable gas torch they are the same, you are using a re filler with the brass nozzle ? has the end been damaged.

Peter

[pipercub1772]

thanks peter yes its brass could not See any damage but ordered a new one this afternoon may arrive tomorrow thanks allan

[Bunkerbarge]

This is precisely why I dislike the Ronson type fillers with a passion.  You are invariably faced with liquid spurting around and if you manage to seal it completely you never know what is happening.  The only way to be certain how much has gone in is to carry a set of scales around with you and do you want to do that every time you fill your tank?  Even if you take the tank out of your boat to make the situation as safe as possible using this method is going to waste unacceptable amounts of gas and you will always be throwing money away.  Even if you take the tank out of the model and walk away from the area squirting liquid gas around invariably collects in your clothes and you are at risk for an unacceptable length of time.  Combined with the fact that the Ronson valves do not have a dip tuibe fitted to them so you don't even know if you have completely filled the tank you could then also run the risk of hydraulically locking the tank.

To be honest if you have room for the 100ml tanks I'd stay with them.  No waste and no hassle with tank pressure testing, which is quite possibly on it's way in the near future if your own regulations don't already require it.

My own method is completely different and although seems to generate criticism every time I mention it I am still adamant that it is safer than the Ronson valve, even though I fill mine in the model, and infinately less wasteful.  The discharge of gas is absolutely minimal and completely under control so the waste is a fraction of when I used the Ronson valves.  Plus I know exactly how much there is in the tank so I always set off with a consistently full tank and I know there is always adequate gas space above the liquid.

[HS93 (RIP)]

yes the criticism start again , the problem is 99.99% of people who use gas including all the Manufactures use the Ronson filler, I don't think it is very good but its the best I have seen used that can be used safely all the time , they would not have been able to sell refillable gas products for the last 50 plus years using this method. for someone new to gas in boats it's ideal, it's safe.

I think it's time for the disclaimer that was put on the last post about gas...

Peter

[Underpressure]

BB, I know you will disagree with me, but I really don't think Ronson valves are wasteful. Yes you get a few little liquid gas splashes when the tank is full and a bit of errant gas hissing about if you don't quite get the nozzle on correctly, but in reality, if it was possible to measure the amount of gas lost (which it's not), then I am certain it would be a negligible amount. My reasoning is that I can get so many refills of my medium sized Cheddar gas tank, from a blowtorch sized canister of gas, I probably only used four or five during my busiest sailing seasons, when I was attending shows and open events almost every week, all summer.

We each have our own ways of doing things, such is the fun of steam and modelling, and I accept that you prefer to use a decanting method, but I like to keep things simple, and if a Ronson valve is good enough for all the commercial manufacturers of small refillable gas appliances out there, then it's good enough for me.

[pipercub1772]

hi guys ,didn't want to open a hornets nest,Will wait till i get the new filler  and experiment a bit it cant be rocket science, also  could you fill the refillable gas tank by connecting a copper tube between the on of gas valve on the refillable tank and a  gas supply valve on the disposable tank? regards allan

[Bunkerbarge]

I agree with you completely Underpressure, there is room for every ones method of doing something.  I just can't help but smile when I read about someone going through exactly the same frustrations that I have been through.

[Underpressure]

hi guys ,didn't want to open a hornets nest,Will wait till i get the new filler  and experiment a bit it cant be rocket science, also  could you fill the refillable gas tank by connecting a copper tube between the on of gas valve on the refillable tank and a  gas supply valve on the disposable tank? regards allan

No hornets nests here, just an exchange of views.

To answer, in theory yes, you could fill a gas tank via the valve, BUT, be careful as you MUST leave an air gap in the tank above the liquid gas, as this allows the liquid to expand. If you don't allow for expansion, then things might start to pop!

I used to fill smaller camping gas stove sized disposable gas cylinders from the larger blowtorch sized ones, as the bigger ones were cheaper, so it can be done.

Neil

[SteamboatPhil]

I am not knowlagable in refillable gas containers, as most of you know I use voporising petrol (don't try this at home folks------) however as I see it-and every one will have a different  idea /version, refillable from ronsil gas containers---easy conveniant-- loss of full running time-------- refillimg from propane/butane mix containers very tricky but better results. Run time must also depend on burner type (help me here) Peter Arnot did an artical (in MB) on gas containers where you fill the tank, draw liquid first, shut valve draw gas from second valve and run, you chaps should undestand this ( well  I don't) I would like to know /understand how you get on with different options. and what (if any the opions are)------well I should keep up----really.
All advice greatfuly received

[Bunkerbarge]

The one challenge with burning liquid is controlling the flame to a set boiler pressure.  This can be done relatively easily with gas and an attenuator valve or an electronic gas control valve which can control the flame to maintain a set pressure and therefore minimise the waste of gas.

Burning the liquid has the advantage of not reducing the temperature of the tank and therefore the burner performance but no one has been able to control the burner.  I am now however reliably informed that there is a system under development that will be able to do this so I'm sure there will be a lot of interest when that hits the market.

One thing that concerns me is impending requirements for pressure testing gas tanks and what that is going to mean for us all.  It may well end up being easier to simply use the 100ml disposable tanks which, when you think about it are quite a bit weaker than a refillable tank and are far less environmentally friendly.

As far as I am aware the burning liquid system uses the two valves in the tank to draw off gas or liquid as required.  The gas is used to ignite the burner then the burner is switched over from gas to liquid for normal running.

[frazer heslop]

Hi, The P Arnot burner has a pre heating coil fitted so you start up on gas then switch to liquid the idea was to reduce the problem of the flame dying out due to temp drop.I use the 100ml disposable cans and with this type of burner and can use them on there side with no ill effect.The original burner was from a Sievert blow lamp. Hope this makes sense.
regards

[pipercub1772]

hi guys,new gas can filler came today filled tank no problem not leeking all over like the old one when liquid comes out i presume its full ,did some calculations with the scales like bunkerbarge mentioned just to established Whats  going on ( good help that one ) , is there any type of dip tube on these ronson type fillers to prevent overfilling,i presume you cant overfill with this type anyway .well that little problem seems to be sorted so i will move on to the next one ,don't know wot that will be but i am sure something will come up ,thanks again regards allan

[steamboatmodel]

hi guys,........... is there any type of dip tube on these ronson type fillers to prevent overfilling,i presume you cant overfill with this type anyway ...........allan

Hi Allen,
You would have to contact the tank manufacturer as to the construction of the tube. Do not presume when working with Gas check with the manufacturer. If there isn't a space tube you can always go by the weight of the tank
Regards,
Gerald.

[Brooks]

I now crack the valve (of my refillable ronson-style tanks) when filling. This speeds the fill (less backpressure), and also protects me from an overfill (by venting liquid when the tank is plumb full). I unwittinglyl filled one in a model loco plumb full. When the liquid expanded during the walk from house to G-gauge RR track, the hydraulic pressure of the liquid split a tank seam. There would have been no split if there had been a gas space left in the tank, sigh.

Propane delivery in the US requires a 20% tank-vol gas space (ullage); that is, you are not allowed to fill an outdoor propane tank (used for home heating here) more than 80% full.

[mainsteam]

I receive frequent Emails regarding difficulties with filling gas tanks.
These tanks can take longer to fill than you think.

TIPS:

Never, ever try to fill the gas tank in the boat, as the gas is heavier than air & can collect in the bilge area of the boat, so when you light the burner - you may be quite surprised at the scale of the resulting explosion - !
Always remove the boat's gas tank before filling and preferably fill the tank outside.

It is important that the gas tank from the boat is COOLER than the gas canister in your hand - so the gas will flow from the filler canister to the recipient tank. All you have to do is make sure that you hold the gas tank from the boat in a thick cloth to avoid transmission of your body heat to the tank.

 It also helps if your thick cloth is cold & damp.

With your other hand around the filler gas canister (the one that you are taking the gas from) shake it gently as you fill your boat's tank to help keep the gas warm from the heat of your hand. Swap hands now & then - that is also effective, as is occasionally opening the gas valve of the boat tank to let a little gas out & revive the flow.
Don't forget that the recipient gas tank from the boat does not need to be full right to the top, as you really do not want liquid gas coming out of the jet.

I hope this helps - it works for me ........

[benjaml1]

Thank you for that, all good info for a newbie....