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Author Topic: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck  (Read 6505 times)

Hilux5972

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Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« on: May 04, 2010, 07:54:41 AM »

Hi All. I am currently in the process of painting mu model from Hachette and am just enquiring about the swastikas. I understand this is a delicat subject but just need to know if they were painted on sqaure or were they on a 45' angle on the deck. Sorry if this offends anyone but this is the way i wish to portray my model. Thanks in Advance

Hilux
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DickyD

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 08:34:33 AM »

This any help ?
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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 10:03:35 AM »

How sad that the O/P feels he has to apologise for wanting to depict a warship in the original decor that it sailed in. There are many "Actions" throughout history that "We" are not proud of but that doesn't stop us flying the Union Jack. It's a warship and despite those who claim "It's to keep the Peace", It's ALSO ultimately a means of enforcing ones will on others that dissagree and that applies to ALL Navys.

  Regards  Ian.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 10:19:07 AM »

Well, depiction of the swastika is illegal in Germany, even on models. No problems in the UK if it is in the right context as here. Running through the streets in certain parts of London waving a swastika flag might provoke a reaction though!

Colin
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Patrick Henry

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 12:10:49 PM »

Brighton Modelworld, a few years back, I had U-117 on display...along comes a gentleman of Scottish birth and proceeded to instruct me about how much I was offending him by having a Kreigsmarine battle ensign flying on the wintergarden. He got quite stroppy about it in the end, despite me telling him that it was a MODEL submarine, I was not a Nazi sympathiser, and a German U-boat would look ridiculous with a Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes flying.

There were at least three other German U-boats on the stand, plus many German surface ships on the various other marine stands, most of them flying the correct flags, but for some reason he had to pick on me.

I notice that nowadays it's very difficult to buy a German battle ensign...I guess it's a politically correct thing, but it just seems silly to me that we as modellers cannot fly the correct flags on our boats without upsetting someone. I wonder how the scale model aircraft boys get on with representing the correct markings on a scale ME-109? Or even the full size warbird restorers? I've never heard anybody complain about the markings on a restored WW2 German fighter...so why do they pick on us?

The world has gone mad....
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 12:20:52 PM »

Perhaps you should have told him how much he offended you by walking around in a skirt Rich?  ok2

Colin
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King

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 01:21:24 PM »

Well, depiction of the swastika is illegal in Germany, even on models. No problems in the UK if it is in the right context as here. Running through the streets in certain parts of London waving a swastika flag might provoke a reaction though!

Colin

A family member (works in Germany) took a book on WWII through German customs, they went through every page and put a sticker over every picture of the swastika, total madness!
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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 02:25:55 PM »

Some Plastic A/C kits don't have the swastika included in the kits, others have the logo diagonally cut so you have to piece it together on the model. I remember a loooooooooooooooooong time ago it was against the law to send a diecast model of the Mercedes Benz long bonnet to Germany cos of the SS connections. Wonder how long it will be before it's politically incorrect to model Afganistan/Iraq/Iran armaments ???

  Regards  Ian.
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BarryM

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 02:31:21 PM »

Brighton Modelworld, a few years back, I had U-117 on display...along comes a gentleman of Scottish birth and proceeded to instruct me about how much I was offending him by having a Kreigsmarine battle ensign flying on the wintergarden. He got quite stroppy about it in the end, despite me telling him that it was a MODEL submarine, I was not a Nazi sympathiser, and a German U-boat would look ridiculous with a Union Jack or the Stars and Stripes flying.

There were at least three other German U-boats on the stand, plus many German surface ships on the various other marine stands, most of them flying the correct flags, but for some reason he had to pick on me.

I notice that nowadays it's very difficult to buy a German battle ensign...I guess it's a politically correct thing, but it just seems silly to me that we as modellers cannot fly the correct flags on our boats without upsetting someone. I wonder how the scale model aircraft boys get on with representing the correct markings on a scale ME-109? Or even the full size warbird restorers? I've never heard anybody complain about the markings on a restored WW2 German fighter...so why do they pick on us?

The world has gone mad....


On the face of it, it sounds illogical nonsense and an over-reaction to both you and me. On the other hand some people have very good reasons for objecting to certain symbols, whether through their own or family experiences, at a time when the world had indeed gone mad.

We may not understand it, it may annoy us but there are times when, if reasoning makes no impact,  we just have to accept it.  We have not walked in their shoes.

Barry M
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steve pickstock

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 02:51:29 PM »

I'm an English Civil War re-enactor and have been refused serivce in a pub in the west country because I was in a government soldier's coat. I know several houses where they won't let you mention Cromwell's name. And all of that ended 360 odd years ago.

Daft innit?

However that's the way people are - there's nowt so queer as folk. (Am I allowed to say that now?)
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Patrick Henry

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 03:04:12 PM »

On the face of it, it sounds illogical nonsense and an over-reaction to both you and me. On the other hand some people have very good reasons for objecting to certain symbols, whether through their own or family experiences, at a time when the world had indeed gone mad.

We may not understand it, it may annoy us but there are times when, if reasoning makes no impact,  we just have to accept it.  We have not walked in their shoes.

Barry M

Quite true Barry, but after all it was just a model boat. My grandfather was killed by a V1 during the war, but I have no grudge to bear with the German people...it was wartime, and people get hurt in a war.

I do agree with you though, maybe some people do have reason to object to the sight of a flag which caused so much fear during those days of WW2, but how about the other nations? If I was to build a Japanese sub I wonder if an American would object to the sight of the Rising Sun? If I built an US sub would a Japanese tourist object to the American flag? And God forbid, but if I was to build a British boat, would a German tourist object?

We could go on and on with this subject methinks, at the end of the day it all boils down to personal feelings. The aforementioned Scotsman was perfectly entitled to his feelings over the sight of the Kreigsmarine ensign, but it was just the way he vented those feelings at me at that time that got up my nose.

IMHO, of course....
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 03:56:59 PM »

On the face of it, it sounds illogical nonsense and an over-reaction to both you and me. On the other hand some people have very good reasons for objecting to certain symbols, whether through their own or family experiences, at a time when the world had indeed gone mad.

We may not understand it, it may annoy us but there are times when, if reasoning makes no impact,  we just have to accept it.  We have not walked in their shoes.

Barry M

I think that I'd believe that if people had always showed this sensitivity to German regalia. But I can remember back to the 50s, and even that close to the war people weren't that sensitive. By the 60s I don't think there were any issues at all. And now people seem to be offended everywhere. At everything.

I think that people nowadays are brainwashed into being offended. Anti-smoking and anti-speeding campaigns nowadays use psycological consultants, and they are interested in 'behaviour modification'. Did you see the leaked paper on 'How to make people believe in Global Warming' a couple of years ago? It was full of techniques to persuade people to 'apply social pressure to their neighbours' and other pleasant little tricks.

It has been said that you cannot 'give' offence, you can only 'take' offence....

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BarryM

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 05:56:14 PM »

I quite agree that the PC Brigade will take offence at anything they consider out of order and I have no more time for them than most people. 

What I was pointing out is that there are still people on these islands for whom a swastika emblem - or a Rising Sun flag - are very real and painful reminders of events that have inflicted mental and physical scars that they take to the grave. If - if - they can forgive, then often they simply cannot forget. If we cannot understand that then let us at least have the patience to show forbearance when confronted with it.

Barry M
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2010, 06:10:50 PM »

Well said Barry and very true. Few of us born after the last war have had to endure the events that many of our parents lived through and the older generation are entitled to be given due consideration - they grew up in a very different world and we owe them big time.

Colin
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Jonty

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 10:46:26 PM »

  Photos in German Capital Ships show Nurnburg, Hipper, Gneisenau, and Prinz Eugen all have the swastika at 45 degrees to the ship's centre line, which is what one might expect from the design of the flag. On Hipper the anchor chains were even painted to match where they passed over the emblem.

  I wonder what these odd people would make of all the buildings you see in India with swastikas on them? The swastika was a sign of good will for perhaps 2000 years before Herr Hitler misappropriated it. The star of David, incidentally, is almost as common, though I have yet to see the two on the same building.
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BarryM

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 10:50:06 PM »

Isn't the Indian swastika of opposite hand? 

Odd people?

Barry M
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Jonty

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 11:02:18 PM »

  No, and apparently that's of no significance. Nor is the orientation, though in India it is almost always seen vertical rather than skewed.

  By 'odd people' I meant the kind of irrational behaviour that U33 encountered.
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I eat my peas with honey,
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Dreadstar

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2010, 11:58:36 PM »

The Indian symbol is called the Flyfot.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 12:37:48 AM »

Most symbols have some religious/worship connection.  ;) In a similar vein what of the five pointed star used by the US Air Force  %) and its Satanic & Black rites connection.  <*<
No move to ban it as the Allies were "victorious". {:-{
Remmeber you cannot reason with the unreasonable and there is no such thing as political correctness.   >:-o <*<

How does that saying go "Evil will prosper whenever good men do nothing"  :o
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Jonty

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2010, 07:35:02 AM »

  I'm not sure about 'fylfot', Dreadstar. I seem to remember that's something to do with church architecture rather than an Indian word. Swastika comes from the Sanskrit svasti or svastik meaning prosperity.
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I eat my peas with honey,
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admiral donuts

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2010, 10:08:52 AM »

Can I just say that no matter what flag or banner is used,brave people have paid the ultimate sacrifice to preserve the right to survive,
to think and act democratically and above all to defend freedom of speech
We cannot change history,it happened for better or worse,mistakes were and will continue to be made,so we all have to live with it
and not loose sight of the events that shaped the world we all live in.hopefully we will learn not to these mistakes again and keeping alive their memory is a painfull but neccesary duty in order for us to keep up our guard
The  P.C. brigade should reflect on this before forcing its opinions on us and in doing so destroying what so many brave people,regardless of race ,creed or colour,have died defending   
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Hilux5972

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2010, 06:22:53 AM »

Hi All. I have now got to the point where i am up to painting the swastikas on the Deck and my first attempt i did one pass of spray paint & the paint seemed to leak all through the deck. I have now got some more decking but want to avoid this happeneing again. Any one have any ideas or the way they did this? Cheers
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tweety777

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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2010, 06:56:01 AM »

The deck is made of wood isn't it?
In that case some good layers of primer might help.

Greetings Josse
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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2010, 11:39:54 AM »

Better than layers of paint is to use sanding sealer.  Quick drying, will penetrate the wood better than undercoat or primer will fill the grain, then undercoat etc. Most model shops have it in the aircraft section.
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Re: Delicate Subject Re: Bismarck
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2010, 02:38:56 PM »

I know its not boat related

But who finds this model railway layout offensive?







Serveral people at the exhibition and also in response to my pictures posted on a number of model railway forums said that it was in bad taste

I liked the builders comment when someone complained.
"Would you have complained if I had done an English version"


As patsy said in Monty Pyton and the holy grail said
"Its only a model"

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