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Author Topic: A Beginners Guide to Steam  (Read 149661 times)

benjaml1

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2010, 09:34:57 am »

To my way of thinking most beginners that venture into steam have some modelling &/or real world engineering experiences under their belts. I think our "beginners" are a notch above the norm because of this. When I see pictures & meet  "steamers" I see the majority are grey haired retired persons like myself. There are indeed a few youngsters in their thirties but very few younger than that. The youngsters want speed... fast electric, fast IC.... Instant gratification. They want to race ! Not only is steam prohibitive for speed ( forgive me flash steam guys) it can also be expensive & time consuming.

So after saying all that, the "spectrum" of knowledge I read in this thread ( to me) seems more applicable... :-))
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vintagent

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2010, 10:28:21 am »

The problem if problem it be, benjamin is that any hobbies requiring application and retention of knowledge or effort seem to be populated by grey haired guys from 45 onwards. 
That goes for old cars, bikes, boats, aircraft, most models, architecture (house restoration), canals, vintage car racing, engineering, furniture....I can't think of any other interests in which I actively or once actively participated.

Since none of them will die out until all we greys are dead, do we actually care?
Selfish, but pertinent.
Regards,
Vintagent
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benjaml1

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2010, 10:54:26 am »

We are mere mortals, the written word is eternal...  :-))
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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2010, 11:00:14 am »

And also the grey haired brigade were brought up in a world full of "real" dangers containing things like "Mamod" fire starters, certainly tuaght you that meths fires couldn't be seen at times. Not like todays Re-set button.  {-)

  I find it sad having to refer beginners to books as in "our" day that was the first point of contact with any hobby. Perhaps it's a different mindset but we were taught to read things first and if the meanings were unclear then ask questions. Depends how much you actually want to get into a subject, but just as there are those who like building and those who like playing I would have thought the same with "the need to steam".

  Perhaps its Alzimmmers, but does anyone else have problems dragging info out of libraries nowadays?? All the toy subjects used to be in ONE area, now it seems everything is jumbled with full size practice. Found one of George Thomas s' books in with production engineering??

   Regards Ian.
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boatmadman

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2010, 11:06:24 am »

Whilst I agree with what has been said about grey hairs being the main interest in steam, I think there is room for some basic info and tips.

Here is my input on sight glasses:

Why have them?

When operating a boiler, one of the most basic safety requirements is to have water in it, otherwise 1) no steam, 2) potentially melting boiler! So, we have a sight glass to see the water level.

In principal, if you cant see the water level in the glass, do not light the burner - simples! Or is it? If you have overfilled the boiler without realising it and you now cant see the level, how can you be absolutely sure there is water in it? I know you know you have just filled it, but are you REALLY sure?

This was drummed into me as an apprentice so deeply I am almost paranoid about it - which has helped a number of times as I operate full size high pressure boilers for a living.

So, how to find if the glass is full or empty? easy, using the principals of refraction, get a straight piece of wire, or thin pencil or similar, hold it at an angle behind the glass. If its empty the straight object will look straight, if the glass is full, you will see the part behind the glass 'bent' at a different angle to the part not behind the glass.

Remember - NO WATER = NO FIRE

ian
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vintagent

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2010, 12:52:07 pm »

Now that is REAL good tip.
Thanks, Ian.

In my wee pot boilers, probably not used but well worth knowing.
Regards,
Vintagent
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gondolier88

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #81 on: June 08, 2010, 01:01:40 pm »

JUST as important in a pot boiler- any water at pressure is above 100degC meaning that if the boiler did melt it would explode as the water rapidly flashes to steam in atmospheric pressure.

That is why pot boilers have a high water content to fuel ratio- the fuel should ALWAYS run out before the water.

Greg
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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #82 on: June 08, 2010, 01:14:17 pm »

Another one for the non thinkers to grasp Greg.

  A "Low pressure" pot boiler is far more dangerous in the event of a bang than a flash steam plant.

  Regards  Ian.
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gondolier88

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #83 on: June 08, 2010, 02:43:29 pm »

Brought to a point by the sticker on the back of Mamod boxes- 'These engines are NOT a toy', says it all really.

Greg
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geoff p

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #84 on: June 08, 2010, 02:49:29 pm »

@ Circlip, First you have to have a Public Library available: some fifteen years ago when I was teaching in Oman, we had a smashing little library at the British Council's place.  Suddenly it was emptied of books and the space taken up by posters and displays to encourage people to study at This, or That or T'other British University.  "Where are the books?"  "Oh we threw them in the skip."

I'm sure many other libraries have gone in much the same way.

Whilst I am not (quite) a beginner in steam - I've built several engines - I do enjoy reading the basics, over and over again.  Each time, something new (to me) comes to the fore, like a Eureka moment, sometimes causing me to modify what I had been doing or the train of thought.

Especially useful are the questioning stance of PMK, so that others amongst us need to explain and therefore to think about the answers.

Thank you, all, for an interesting thread.

Geoff
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boatmadman

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #85 on: June 08, 2010, 05:45:34 pm »

Sight glass blowdown valve.

What is it and why is it fitted?

It is a drain to atmosphere from the bottom of the sight glass. Its purpose is to vent to atmosphere the contents of the glass, and to prove the tappings through to both the water and steam side are clear.

In full size applications, there are isolation valves between the glass and the steam and water side of the boiler. This allows individual verification that the steam and water tappings are clear.

I have never seen this set up in model boilers and I'm not really sure why, the need to prove the glass is working properly is just as important as in full size.

Ian
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vintagent

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #86 on: June 08, 2010, 05:56:39 pm »

Boatmadman, I've seen them almost as a matter of course on locomotives down to Gauge 1.

As to Mamods being dangerous?
Only if run by an idiot. I used my SEL and my various cousins and mates' Mamods ever since I was a kid with no problems at all. Even if the water ran out, but as you rightly said, the fuel always ran out first, but we did see some solder seepage occasionally!

I wouldn't be using a Mamod as such, I'd be silver soldering my own, with some water tubes a la W.J.Hughes, LBSC et al, but keeping it simple.  It's gas that scares me, partly the obvious, mainly the price of the bits required, so I'll stick to meths or even fuel blocks.
If I get bored, well, maybe I'll move up a bit.

In which case, how does one get a vulcan certificate and how much does it cost.  just in case.

Regards,
Vintagent
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benjaml1

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #87 on: June 08, 2010, 06:08:51 pm »

Sight glass blowdown valve.

What is it and why is it fitted?

It is a drain to atmosphere from the bottom of the sight glass. Its purpose is to vent to atmosphere the contents of the glass, and to prove the tappings through to both the water and steam side are clear.

In full size applications, there are isolation valves between the glass and the steam and water side of the boiler. This allows individual verification that the steam and water tappings are clear.

I have never seen this set up in model boilers and I'm not really sure why, the need to prove the glass is working properly is just as important as in full size.

Ian

The bottom tap is prone to sediment blockage, blowdown ensures it's clear on the recovery ( hopefully) of liquid level... It's a safety check really that the reading is true..
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dave301bounty

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #88 on: June 08, 2010, 07:38:48 pm »

This brings to mind ,On boiler surveys the glasses were always smashed ,and new ones put in .This particular Engineer of this ship I was on ,he would save the glasses .I was alwas very dubious when it was my turn to blow the glasses . And years later I heard of a very bad accident on this ship ..no need to say anymore . Steam is a Good servant , but a Bad master .
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2010, 07:45:46 pm »

On a real ships gauge glass there should be a stainless steel ball in the lower valve.  The idea of this is that if the glass breaks the ball is lifted onto a seat and closes off the water side.  This prevents the escape of water, which would then flash off into steam as soon as it was released.  It's surprising the number of engineers who are not aware of this and do not clean this valve out thoroughly during a boiler survey.

Not part of a beginners guide before anyone says anything but I thought there may be some who found it interesting.
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dave301bounty

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #90 on: June 08, 2010, 07:51:20 pm »

That is another thing I did,nt know ,thanks ,how about my souvenirs though .got a set of glasses .plus a Fuse/able plug .now that is some thing .massive brass never ?used .
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sheerline

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #91 on: June 08, 2010, 10:44:02 pm »

Now there's a thing I didn't know BB. I often used to look at loco water guages and think " God help anyone if that glass breaks" but the device you  mentioned is so simple yet effective and must have saved countless lives. I assume it would be fitted to all large boilers.
You learn something every day. :-))

May I be so bold and with the greatest of respect add a couple of comments?

Reading through one or two comments in this thread, perhaps it needs to be decided whether this is for knowledgable beginners or absolute beginners ie, youngsters who have never played with a steam plant or worse, never seen one. When I wrote the manuals for the submarines they were directed at someone who had absolutely no experience whatever in any of the diciplines be it mechanical or electrical/ radio and with this in mind all the way through, these manuals have allowed total novices to not only build a sub but fully understand the principles and operate one. So, in the case of steam, there a lot of people out there who would love to have a steam boat but A: can't afford one and B: have absolutely no idea regarding anything about what makes them work.

I think what may be a good idea is to start a thread showing  how to put the most simple of boats together using  an old dismantled Mamod or Wilesco stationary engine, explaning simply how it works and how to bring the relevant components together in a hull. I am certain this would fire quite a few youngsters immagination as it wouldn't cost much to accumulate the bits and assembly would be extremely basic with fairly quick results. Once inspired, some may go on to greater things but at least the seed of success would be sown.
Even to the grey haired amongst us, the sheer simplicity of the subject can make for compulsive viewing and even some useful input but the basic principle of absolute simplicity and simple language should prevail.
It is easy to get carried away with the knowledge we have aquired over the years and it takes great skill to convey a message in such such simple terms that all can understand it.

Just my thoughts BB and perhaps this is what you had originally intended with this thread . If i had enough spare time on my hands I would do this myself but unfortunately i haven't and can only suggest it and stand back and let someone else consider it.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2010, 12:03:02 am »

Thanks for the input Sheerline, which I think is spot on.  The idea of a Mamod/Wilesco build thread would also be an ideal vehicle to generate some interest and questions and perhaps keep the thinking firmly planted but finding someone with the time on thier hands to do such a thing might be a bit more of a challenge.  The trouble is of course there will always be varying degrees of expertise which will, by the very nature of a forum thread, come out and lead to discussion that can then detract from the original.  The trouble is you never really know who is reading it and how many people think it is pitched at the right level.

One argument would have to be if it is pitched at a slightly higher level then absolute beginners will pick out what they want and ignore the rest so you should be appealling to a wider audience.  If it is completely basic then you are loosing the interest of those slightly higher up the scale.  As for splitting it you still have the decisions, which seem to generate quite a wide variation of opinions, of what to include in which thread.

As I'm also at work and tied up quite a lot during the day I'm currently happy to let the thread find it's own level and rely on the exellent input from the likes of Gondola to generate further questions.  I'm just watching from the sideline to see where it is going. 
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vintagent

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2010, 09:34:49 am »

This thread seems to have become a thread about the nature of the thread instead of the subject, with just the odd diversion into steam.
I have asked a question twice on here and had no response, so as they say on The Dragons...I'm out.

Regards,
Vintagent
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Circlip

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2010, 09:54:31 am »

Afore ye gan awa Vintagent, your question mentioned in post 74?. Despite re-reading the whole 2 pages, I can't find your question re lubricators??

   Regards   Ian.
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wideawake

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2010, 12:36:30 pm »

Afore ye gan awa Vintagent, your question mentioned in post 74?. Despite re-reading the whole 2 pages, I can't find your question re lubricators??

   Regards   Ian.

I've just had a look through and I can't find it either.  Please post the question again Vintagent.  I'm sure that someone will try to gve you an answerbefore thet thread drifts again!

Cheers

Guy
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2010, 12:56:39 pm »

This thread seems to have become a thread about the nature of the thread instead of the subject, with just the odd diversion into steam.
I have asked a question twice on here and had no response, so as they say on The Dragons...I'm out.

Regards,
Vintagent

You've asked us twice yet three of us can't find it  {:-{ so if you could either point us in the direction of the original  :D or repeat it  :embarrassed: I'm sure someone will be able to provide an answer. O0
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vintagent

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2010, 01:03:02 pm »

Red faced, I have to admit I think I put it in as a sideline on a different thread.

Oh, nursey, change me pills, luv!

It was about lubricators, size for a small vee twin oscillator, details for making and where to place it in the pipework.
Thanks and sorry about the false alarm.
I've clearly got too much on at the moment!

As another aside, a model railway customer has promised me a Mamod and a wonderful, classy S.E.L. engine.
Can't wait.  Simple, but classy little SEL, all crackle black and shiny bakelite!
But the Mamod will be dismantled for the steam boat until I make the vee twin.

Regards,
Vintagent
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wideawake

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2010, 01:24:26 pm »

Red faced, I have to admit I think I put it in as a sideline on a different thread.

Regards,
Vintagent

No problem mate, you won't be the first or last to make a mistake!

WRT lubricators, I've made two in the past, one (non-adjustable) from the articles on the Alpha twin oscillator in ME a few years ago and another (adjustable) from John Bertinat's articles on Marcher from many more years ago.

Unfortunately I don't have a the articles here so can't copy either ATM but someone may have the them to hand.   Personally I prefer the Bertinat item.  It's easy to make as it uses 1/2" tube for the body.

HTH

Guy

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Bunkerbarge

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Re: A Beginners Guide to Steam
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2010, 03:15:25 pm »

Vintagent, If you go to this forum, http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com and put lubricator in the search box you will come up with a lot of threads on the subject and a number of drawings and explanations such as this one:

This particular one condenses the steam which enters from the bottom connection and collects outside the central tube.  This displaces the oil held outside the tube, which then overflows into the central tube and beack along the steam supply pipe.  I would locate such a lubricator on a 'T' peice close to the engine steam inlet.
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