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Author Topic: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat  (Read 7474 times)

RipSlider

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Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« on: June 11, 2008, 01:42:59 pm »

For a while now, I have been interested in the model boat racing series, such as OMRA and MPRA (sp??) but I have never entered due to the fact that I didn't want to spend money on what a hull/model that I thought was less than optimal. At the time, I had no idea *why* I thought that the current hull shapes were less than perfect, so I set out to teach myself boat design and mechanics with the gola of designing, even if it was just in my own head a model boat that was as fast as possible.

The following (  spread over multiple posts ) will be some of the thoughts and findings that I've come up with whle I researched ( and continue to research ) how to design the fastest possible model boat. A couple of friends and colleuges of mine are also feeding the thinking, so this is a collective effort.

The ultimate aim is that, after some thoughts have been put down in a single place ( i.e this thread ) I can pull everything together and get some pictures down as well. Maybe this will lead to an actual model ( although Martin13 will shout at me for abandoning EarthRace ) but probably I'll give up at that point.

This post, and the ones after it, as designed primarily for me to share some thoughts or findings. They are't posting a question or looking for advice - at least initially.

feel free to add comments thoughts etc etc etc as the concepts are added.  Note that they are in no real order or sequence at the moment - just a stream of conciousness initially.



First Principles

Some thoughts to base my future posts on.

A model boat is different to a full sized boat.
This may sound obvious, but it's the fundemental issue here.

Enginnering, all engineering, is about comprimises. A full sized racing boat has a series of compromises built into it. It has to handle waves of up to 4ft in height. It has to cary passangers. It has to carry 200+ liters of fuel safely etc etc.

In a model boat, we *still* have to make compromises, but they are a different set. We don't have to carry a passanger, so there is nothing stopping us, if we choose, from mounting the engine near the front of the boat. Becuase it's easy to build something strong and light which is small, rather than if it is large, I can build a model which is far stronger than a full sized boat. So a deep V hull, which is a *significant* comprimise is no longer nessacary. I can build an ultra strong hull with a dead-rise of 10, rather than 30 and not only will the boat survive high speeds without me having to resort to titanium and metal matrix components,  but I also have no passangers to worry about being smashed to bits inside a hull that is subjected to huge slam forces, but goes quicker.

What does a model racing boat have to do?
Not a lot;

1) produce high straight line speeds for a given engine size
2) be stable and fast in multiple conditions, from flat calm to significant chop
3) turn rapidly, and not loose much speed in the turn
4) be able to get to the end of a single race in one piece, with as few fuel stops as possible ( this is related, in part, to the "slippyness" - a function of all forms of drag on the hull - and the build quality and technique.


Boats travel through different substances

Another seemingly obvious thought, but one that becomes useful later:

A racing boat, various parts of the SAME racing boat, travel through different substances, each of which have different properties - some useful, some not useful.

The substances are:

1) "static" water - ie. water that has not been affected by the boat itself. This is essentially the water in front of the boat, be it flat calm or choppy. It also is the water at the edge of the wake caused by the hull moving through the water

2) "dynamic" water - this is water that the boat has imparted energy and/or turbulance into during it's passing. This is the water under, to the side of and behind the boat. The wake essentially. It has cost us - as the model maker/racer - energy to make this wake, and it would be useful if we could re-use some of this energy to add to additional forward speed or to reduce drag

3) air: this is essentially "very thin water". We can assume it's all fairly static, as even if the boat travels at the top speed of 40mph that the OMRA has recorded, the dymanic elements aren't really very useful, as the energy is very spread out.

4) Foam: foam is horribly dreadful stuff - the maths behind foams are mind boggling. However, it's a different state to water or air, so we need to keep it in mind. It's a horrible cheat, but we model foam as "sticky air" - it has most of the properties of air, but  creates more drag ( actually large amounts indeed )

Foams occur in two places: Around the hull - which is nice, as it's less draggy than water, so we'll take as much hull foam as we can get, and around the prop do to cavitation, which is not as good. Cavertation ON or AFTER to prop is fine. On a model boat I can put a new prop on for a few quid, so wear on the prop isn't a bother. Equally, cavitation the prop has moved through that piece of water is not an issue, as I'm not trying to reduce the sonar signature of the boat. However, props work best going through as dense a medium as possible, so what we really want is the first half of each prop blade to be biting "pure" water.


We want different bits of the boat in different substances:

Another obvious one, but bare with me.

Ideally, we want as much of the hull as we can possibly get away with NOT in water. In a perfect world, we'll have it in air. if not, then foam is a good compromise

The prop we want in water - and water that is not turbulated. (NOTE: immediate argument here is "What about the super-cavitating props that all the racing guys currently use??"  - this is a whole post by itself, but for now, assume that if the prop "bites" water rather than air it can impart more force. Tomorrow I'll have finished some sums on super-cavitating props and other designs and will post these up )

Bouyancy isn't very important
We want a boat that goes over the top of waves. So currently boats have lots of bouyancy - and so lots of "volume" up at the front of the boat. However, in a model, it doesn't really matter very much.

This is becuase there is more than one type of bouyancy.

"Static" bouyancy is the bouyancy of the boat at rest. If you drop the boat in the water it's the bouyancy that stops it sinking.

However, there is more than one type of boyancy ( although this is a bit problematic ).

Can we add devices onto the hull that make it more bouyant when it moves? if we can, then all of a sudden we can don't need as much volume at the front of the boat holding "static bouyancy" - which reduces aero drag and, more importantly, water drag.

Yes is the short answer. Imagine strapping two plastic sewerage pipes along the length of the hull of a canal boat. Most of these pipes is submerged, with just a bit above the surface. When the boat is at rest, these pipes add zero bouyancy. However, when the canal boat is travelling at full speed , the air will drive out the water in the pipes ( becuase of turbulance etc ) and so there will now be two air flled pipes strapped to the hull. As long as the boat is moving, the air is in the pipes, and adds bouyancy.

Note that this is NOT the same as lift (which is where the contencion lies ) our view is that "Lift equals drag causes at a normal angle"  - the concept of "dynamic bouynacy" doesn't fill this definition, so we've come up with the description of "dymanic bouyancy". there will be a proper name for this, but I can't currently find it.

If we want a fast boat, we want it to have a small wetted surface and a small volume. A lot of this volume is taken up to make a bouyant boat ( look at a deep V racer - all that space up at the front ). if we "make our own" bouyancy, we can reduce the need for static volume, so allowing us to do the same job for less drag.


That's some first principles. Now my lunch hour is over, so I'll add the next bits this evening.

Steve
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towboatjoe

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 02:16:47 pm »

Questions...
1) produce high straight line speeds for a given engine size
2) be stable and fast in multiple conditions, from flat calm to significant chop
3) turn rapidly, and not loose much speed in the turn
4) be able to get to the end of a single race in one piece, with as few fuel stops as possible ( this is related, in part, to the "slippyness" - a function of all forms of drag on the hull - and the build quality and technique.

Answer...
A tunnel hull racing boat.
In the real world, only four inches of the hull touches the water and they turn like a bulldozer at 120 miles per hour.
if you're not wedged in, the G force will throw you through the side of the hull. I've seen it happen with green drivers.
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RipSlider

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 04:47:49 pm »

Ah ha!

A perfect example of the "Model boats are not full sized boats" statement.

Tunnel hulls make for good and fairly fast full sized boats, although huge isses dealing with Wangle deviations at speed.

But why build one for as a model simply designed to get around a course the quickest? Apart from "it seems to work well at full size for a given set of conditions"

But still a lot of compromises in there - space for humans, areodymanics of a brick ( look at a front section of your average tunnel hull - the aero goes the wrong way - so is a huge missed oppurtunity) and turning circle is no where near as good as it could be. ( I want a model to turn 180 degrees within 2 boat lengths lengths or less and still kep the straightline speed as close to Vmax as possible )  no dymanic elements, hull has to be tuned to an expected range of conditions ( which means a scale model, rather than a semi scale model is *well* below optimal tuning) and all the energy that comes from the wake is being wasted.

Bit of an issue adding a sub-surface drive to a true tunnel hull as well without ramping up the reynolds number drastically due to turbulations within the tunnel. Out-boards solve this problem, but bring with them a host of other issues ( mainly the fact that you end up with a bit weight at the back - consequently a host of bouyancy at the front - which is very wasteful )

A scale model of a tunnel hull boat will go "pretty quick". But I'm not looking to design a "pretty quick" boat - I want to design "the fastest possible boat that physics will let me get away with"

This is the key point I'm trying to get to:

A "model boat" which is optimised to complete a race course as rapidly as possible will not really look like a full sized boat. If it does, then it is fair to say that the design is not yet optimised.

Due to the difference in speed, the non-linear scaling effects of wave shapes, the fact that power/weight ratio can be radically different in a model etc etc etc ( although they are the big ones ) something that is 3 foot long, a massive power/weight ratio, no passengers, ability to have lots of dynamic elements at a low cost and that only needs to hold together for 15 minutes will be, if driven to optimisation, radically different to a full sized boat - for a seres of physical, finacial and safety reasons.


-> side point - talk of Wangle issues and wave hieght optimisation issues in a model above got me thinging about optimising a model tunnel hull, and whether this would this fulfil the brief I set myself.

I reckon that a model tunnel hull "could" be optimised, but it still wouldn't be reaching the potential for a model boat - it would just be reaching the optimisation of a tunnel hull.
We can sit down and design a tunnel hull that will be as good as possible on calm water. We can also design one that is as good as possible on chop. And a third design that will work OK ( but not great ) on swell. Those are three pretty different models though - radically different.

Why don't we instead design a model that will work optimally for all three conditions?

Steve



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John W E

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2008, 05:10:27 pm »

hi there

If you can manage to lay your hands on a book High Speed Small Craft by Peter Du Cane - this may be able to answer some of your questions.  Basically, what you are trying to do, is what many folk have tried to do over the past decade - and that is, to design a hull that will overcome numerous Sea conditions.  I am afraid that only two hulls will do that.   

Wave piercing hulls

and

Submarines.

For out and out speed, you should be looking at trying to redesign a three point hydroplane.

aye
john e
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RipSlider

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2008, 06:28:04 pm »

Cdr. Du Cranes book has some good stuff in it,  but again it addresses the wrong problem ( for this post )  - i.e it discusses full sized boats.

I ( and my friends ) have got no desire to design a full sized boat - that's what the clever people at the Steven's institute are for. we're trying to design a fast model boat. Which is a vastly different thing indeed/

Your two suggestions: Wave piercing and 3 point hydroplanes are kind of where this post is headed - possibly.

right now we have a computer model which has a 3 point hull and is ( to an extent ) wave piercing ( it wave pierces only at after a certain AoA and/or wave height is encountered) . Seems to be working well in the model but no where near finished playing with it yet. However, lots of other concepts being in there as well. Also two other models being modelled as well but no so far advanced.

The key thing is though - they don't bare a lot of relation to full sized boats.

Next post goes into more first principles, and then onto some thoughts and stuff about applications

Steve
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John W E

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2008, 07:19:34 pm »

hi there RipSlider - are your trial designs going anywhere near the scribble that I have put on here.  This is based on a wave piercing 3 point hydroplane.

I designed this a few years ago.

 :)

aye
john e
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RipSlider

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 12:18:31 pm »

One of the idea's might be a bit like this - I would need to see a top view though.

I'll get more posts up, and then you'll see where we're heading.

I'm not keeping secrets, it is simply that I don't actually know myself where this will turn up.

Steve
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Harbottle

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2010, 07:29:43 pm »

This here boat that you're designing/building .... what exactly are you wanting to do with it?
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w3bby

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2010, 08:26:08 am »

Quote
1) produce high straight line speeds for a given engine size
2) be stable and fast in multiple conditions, from flat calm to significant chop
3) turn rapidly, and not loose much speed in the turn
4) be able to get to the end of a single race in one piece, with as few fuel stops as possible ( this is related, in part, to the "slippyness" - a function of all forms of drag on the hull - and the build quality and technique.

Sounds like a description of a FSR-V boat, nothing like a full-size boat...... Apart from the refueling, any boat stopping to refuel during a race will lose substantial time and position.
If you are designing for the OMRA and/or BMPRS then reading through their rules will give you a starting point containing certain restrictions.

http://www.omra-uk.org/documents/Rules.pdf

http://www.bmprs.co.uk/ (which at the time of writing seems to be down)

What are your limitations as regards "significant chop"?

vintagent

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2010, 06:09:08 pm »

Is this going to be all clever theory or have you actually built anything yet?
Regards,
Vintagent
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StevenageMBC

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2010, 07:08:53 pm »

Fast boats are pretty much sorted anyway...

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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2010, 10:22:13 pm »

Perhaps a model boat as a design precedent is necessary...

http://www.rumrunnerracing.com/articles/2001lasawsStory.htm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3918/is_200406/ai_n9446507/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VgqT0-PocQ


There appears to be an offshore catamaran desgin with the "fastest" gas model title..

 :-)
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StevenageMBC

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2010, 01:22:37 am »

The fastest boats will always be outriggers.

From the Mac engines website...

COURSE   NAME   MPH/TIME   DATE   HULL   ENGINE
IMPBA 1/16th Mile SAW            
7.5cc Hydro   Andy Brown   109.626mph   2/21/98   Eagle SG   MAC 45
11cc Hydro   Andy Brown   115.207mph   11/21/01   Eagle SG   MAC 67
30cc Hydro   Andy Brown   120.579mph   11/19/01   Eagle SG   MAC 84
1/8th Scale
Unlimited   Gary Preusse   84.52mph   11/17/01      MAC 67
XLS27
Gas Hydro   Foster/Roodvoets   95.633mph   11/12/05   Eagle SGX   
.               
IMPBA 1/3 Mile 2 Lap Oval            
3.5cc Mono   Jerry Crowther   26.49 sec.   10/21/01      MAC 21
3.5cc Hydro   John Brown   18.86 sec.   2/24/02   Eagle SGX   MAC 21
7.5cc Hydro   John Brown   18.59 sec.   2/24/02   Eagle SG   MAC 45
11cc Hydro   John Brown   17.92 sec.   11/21/99   Eagle SG   MAC 67
1/8th Scale
Unlimited   Gary Preusse   23.38 sec.   11/18/00      MAC 67
XLS27
Gas Hydro   Brad Foster   28.171 sec.   10/05/02   SGX   
.               
NAMBA 1/16th Mile SAW            
B Mono   Erik McNair   72.32mph   1/1/02      MAC 45
C Mono   Erik McNair   74.72mph   1/1/02      MAC 67
X Mono   Erik McNair   70.31mph   1/1/02      MAC 84
A Hydro   Erik McNair   84.49mph   5/1/99   Eagle SG   
G1-Hydro   Mike Hoffmeister   82.87mph   1/1/02   Eagle SG   
G2-Hydro   Mike Hoffmeister   72.72mph   1/1/02   Eagle SG   
GX1-Hydro   Mike Hoffmeister   80.21mph   1/1/02   Eagle SG   
GX2-Hydro   Mike Hoffmeister   83.92mph   1/1/02   Eagle SG   
.               
NAMBA 6 Lap 1 Mile Oval            
Sport 21   Jim Wilson   88.79 sec.   9/2/02      MAC 21
30cc Mono   Erik McNair   83.49 sec.   3/1/02      MAC 84
11cc Hydro   Roger Hooks, Jr.   61.00 sec.   10/15/02   Eagle SGX   MAC 67
30cc Hydro   Wayne
Hendrickson   59.00 sec.   5/1/99   Eagle SG   
.               
NAMBA 2 Lap Oval            
A Hydro   Erik McNair   20.29 sec.   5/1/99   Eagle SG   
B Hydro   Steve O'Donnell   17.58 sec.   10/1/00   Eagle SG   
C Hydro   Andy Brown   18.14 sec.   5/1/99   Eagle SG   
.               
AMPBA (Australia) 1/16th Mile SAW         
C Hydro   Aaron Alberico   98mph   4/28/02   Eagle SG   
.               
AMPBA (Australia) 1/3 Mile 2 Lap Oval         
C Hydro   Aaron Alberico   17.91 sec.   5/26/02   Eagle SG

Unless you want to start talking about tethered stuff...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5tAq531Es0
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vintagent

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 10:53:03 am »

How interesting.  Hit a wall?  Nothing in the last 8 years.

Regards,
Vintagent
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StevenageMBC

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Re: Some thoghts on producing a very fast model boat
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2010, 12:34:26 pm »

Not really, Mac engines as far as I know have stopped production due to a fall out between Andy Brown and CMB.

I know for a fact though that the Eagle SGX and SGX2 are still available...
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