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Author Topic: Hosepipe Ban Coming?  (Read 8638 times)

tony52

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Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« on: June 20, 2010, 10:56:55 am »

In the North West we are being threatened with a hosepipe ban. How are things in yor part of the country?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/20/north-west-england-hosepipe-ban-drought-warning

Currently United Utilities are building a link pipe which will connect Manchester (Lake Disrict water) to Liverpool (Welsh water). This pipe will connect between service reservoirs on the Bury/Rochdale boudary and St Helens, allowing water to be transferred either way. This is a perfectly good scheme but unfortunately it will not be in use until 2011, too late for this year.

Tony.
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Lt. Raen

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2010, 12:14:46 pm »

Hahaha i first thought this was a ban on pipes and couldn't work out why anyone would ban a pipe  :embarrassed: ;D

However a ban on the use of hoses for activities like watering the garden and hosing hard surfaces is a very common
occurrence here in Australia, (possibly a side effect to living on one of the driest continents on earth  {-) )

I think that restrictions on the use of hoses is a good idea, if it reduces water consumption per capita, regardless of
whether or not an area is in drought. after all it doesn't really hurt us to use a little less of everything.  O0

Just my 2 cents from downunder,
Tim
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2010, 12:42:33 pm »


Yep they tried that also here in Queensland <:( and told everyone to pack their hoses away for the duration. >>:-(
However the firies (Fire Brigade) advised everyone to leave their hoses connected in case of a fire, Health and safety concerns. O0
Queensland Govt nil,  :embarrassed: Fire Brigade 1. ;)
We kept our hoses. :-)) :-))
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gondolier88

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2010, 01:20:39 pm »

I hope so- since last Novenmber we've lost 8.5ft of water on lake level and the river at the bottom of my garden that drains Coniston Water is literally just a trickle at the moment- and Coniston's not even a reservoir!!!

I havn't been up but I hear that Thirlmere is down a huge amount, and Windermere is down over 9ft.

Greg
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tony52

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2010, 02:29:18 pm »

Greg

The North West news earlier this year showed problems launching the Gondola due to low water level in Coniston. The boats maintenance team (yourself included?) had spent the winter months carrying out essential works, only to be hit with this problem.

Good luck for the rest of the season
Tony.
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gondolier88

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 04:45:21 pm »

Hi Tony,

Yes it was a problem- and completely unexpected- 3 weeks after slipping the boat the floods hit and put us 3 weeks behind schedule, then, even with all the snow we had, the water level just kept dropping and dropping- it was in the last few inches of being able to launch this year- and that was at the end of March, since then we hava had no more than 4 days of rain at most!!!!

Thanks.

Greg
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brianc

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 06:23:45 pm »

                                       FOR SALE

                                   FRESH  WATER
                                       5P A LITRE
                                           %%

Water is something we are VERY lucky to have plenty of ,up here.
I can`t remember the last time we had a hosepipe ban in my area.
I really sympathise with you guy`s down south,it can`t be easy {:-{


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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2010, 08:21:14 pm »

... after all it doesn't really hurt us to use a little less of everything. 

I think it does.

We are not short of water on Earth. There's about a quarter of a cubic kilometer for every person on the planet. And it doesn't ever go away - it gets recycled automatically.

What we ARE short of is the infrastructure needed to purify, store and transport the water. When the state used to be in charge of this undertaking it was slow and inefficient, but it invested in new infrastructure for the long term. We are now living on the legacy of the last 80 or so years of this investment - not only in water, but in sewerage, electricity, transport, you name it.

When all these state enterprises were passed to the private sector, they were interested in making a quick profit for their shareholders. You don't do that by investing in new infrastructure which will take 10 years to come in line and will only benefit your successors. So they stopped investing, and started using the slack in the systems - the slack that was there for emergencies. Now all our infrastructure is 100% employed, and there is no margin left for times when we have a dry summer or a cold winter. And so we get cuts....

The service companies now really need to invest. But they aren't. Instead, they are trying to persuade us to use LESS of their product (which they will sell to us for more) so that they don't have to build a new reservoir, power station, treatment works, you name it. They will keep profiting while providing a worse service per head of their customer base. And so long as they dress this up with 'green environmental'  propaganda, nobody will recognise what they are doing, or push them to cut their shareholders dividends and invest for the future.

We should be demanding, and using, much more of these services. If we don't, we will watch our infrastructure degrade to a worse condition than it is already in...
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gondolier88

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2010, 09:09:01 pm »

I think it does.

We are not short of water on Earth. There's about a quarter of a cubic kilometer for every person on the planet. And it doesn't ever go away - it gets recycled automatically.

Sorry if this sounds offensive- I don't mean to offend, but it annoys me SO much when people make stupidly broad statements like this!

Water IS NOT a constantly available resource- there are many factors- industry mainly- that means that every year thousands of millions of litres of water are irreversably lost through change of state in industrial processes

And the way we look after the infrastructure we have is abysmal- we do have the right infrastructure- but again every year in just London District alone 14 million litres of water are lost through leaking mains, then there are the taps left on, hosepipes left on with a drip for weeks on end, and old toilets with large cistern flushing- plus many other ways in which we abuse our most precious resource.

Greg
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2010, 09:55:05 pm »


Water IS NOT a constantly available resource- there are many factors- industry mainly- that means that every year thousands of millions of litres of water are irreversably lost through change of state in industrial processes


Irreversibly lost? What on earth happens to them? There is no way they can be destroyed short of nuclear engineering.

Change of state suggests moving from a solid to a liquid to a gas to me. Are you saying that turning water into steam loses it? What about the hydrological cycle?

My point stands. We do NOT have the right infrastructure for the number of people we have in these islands any more, and we need more. We will not get that by pretending that we are saving the world by conserving water or electricity....
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2010, 10:43:08 pm »

I have to go along with DG here. While water management was in the public sector it was done so on a strategic basis even if not as efficient as it might have been. There is indeed no real incentive for the current companies to invest for the long term as needs to be the case with such a fundamental resource. Privatising basic utilities was a big mistake in my view, the emphasis should have been in making them more efficient whilst still acting in the long term public interest. Unfortunately the private good, public bad mantra won the day with the results we are now experiencing.

DG is perfectly correct in saying that there is no longer any slack in the system so that where there is a natural disaster which requires concentration of resources, those resources are no longer readily available so people end up suffering for longer.

The railways are a typical example, the franchisees have no incentive to invest and in fact have every financial reason to keep trains as short as possible regardless of consequential passenger discomfort.

None of this is rocket science. It simply demonstrates that politictians generally subordinate common sense to personal ambition but it was always thus....  :((

Colin
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Jonty

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2010, 10:47:43 pm »

  I commute past two reservoirs here in West Yorkshire. A trip today to the Northern Model Boat Show near Doncaster and back via Ripponden showed another three reservoirs where the level is lower than I have seen it in five years. And the summer hasn't started yet.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2010, 11:02:14 pm »

Irreversibly lost? What on earth happens to them? There is no way they can be destroyed short of nuclear engineering.

Change of state suggests moving from a solid to a liquid to a gas to me. Are you saying that turning water into steam loses it? What about the hydrological cycle?

My point stands. We do NOT have the right infrastructure for the number of people we have in these islands any more, and we need more. We will not get that by pretending that we are saving the world by conserving water or electricity....
I think that what was meant was that we have, in this country certainly, and probably globally, a very finite amount of fresh water.  This is replenished at a finite rate.  There are such things as artesian basins which have been created over millennia, but which have been tapped as a source of fresh water and are being drained faster than they are replenished via the hydrological cycle.  
I seem to recall being shown a cross-section of this while doing O level geography using the London basin as an example - various curved rock strata, some porous, some not.  Precious little clue as to what happened when the wells went dry, but that was back about 1960 when ecology was something in the unknown future.
I also recall a holiday in Silloth (I've REALLY lived, me), and while looking out of the caravan window at the water rising through the grass, reading in the local tourist information sheet that "The Lake District Lakes are full of water which needs a lot of rain to keep them that way".  I don't know if we are anywhere near the conditions of '75/'76, when the end of the world through thirst was confidently predicted and the village under Hawes water reappeared, but we have since then found a great many ways of wasting the stuff, not the least of which is letting private companies loose to ignore leaks in their own plant which they are being highly paid to maintain.  I also recall one particularly bone-headed cabinet minister claiming that more metering would solve the problem.  The bone headed p*ss artist couldn't work out that the meters happened AFTER the leaks.
If any private individual sells somebody their own property which they have already paid for, its called fraud, and the individual gets arrested.  If a bunch of politicians convinces enough of the public that its a good idea that they should buy what they already own, and have already paid for, its democracy and policy, rather than a confidence trick.
Jonty - I, too, went that way and thought that Baiting's dam was a bit low for the time of year.
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gondolier88

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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2010, 11:59:40 pm »


Very interesting commentary which goes to show that problems & politicians are the the same the world over  <:( <*< <*<
In Oz and in particular Queensland the water is now being sold to us by "new" companies who are increasing the cost by at least 20% (no why spend their profits on infrastructure) to pay for new infrastructure to deliver extra water to meet growing population needs.
What they are not doing and need to do is make industry not use potable  >>:-( >>:-(water where it is not essential such as in Cooling towers in power stations which can use sea water.
Whilst the "scientific" commentary says we are running out of water it is not addressing the problem which is how it is being wasted by industry.
It was galling here, that consummers were restricted whilst industry continued to waste the water,r eventually the Qld Government got the message and put some minor industrial restrictions/changes in place.
Trouble is the pollies are to, quick to sign up for long term contracts and don't care about the consequences 20 years down the track as they are no longer there to accept responsibility for there actions. >>:-( <*<
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2010, 06:38:19 am »

DG perhaps you may want to read here, I'm not in the habit of lying;

www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1590/is_n3_v54/ai_19986896/
www.current.com/green/84936491_can-water-run-out.htm
www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2009/jan/22/water-climate-change

Greg


All three of these references are green propaganda pieces, containing no data but simply assertions that 'there are going to be shortages' - shortages that will occur because of infrastructure failings. The last piece even points out that

'...water supplies are infinitely renewable...'

even though it does so through gritted teeth.

Do you read the items you cite? They illustrate my point nicely.....
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2010, 06:57:54 am »

I think that what was meant was that we have, in this country certainly, and probably globally, a very finite amount of fresh water.  This is replenished at a finite rate.  

If so, then what I tried to point out still stands. We do NOT have 'a finite amount' of water in this country. We have 'a finite amount' that is easy to deliver with the current infrastructure. We can deliver any greater amount by changing the infrastructure.

A lot of environmentalists try to give the impression that services are in some way limited to what we have at the moment. I cannot see why this should be - no other age has felt this...


 I also recall one particularly bone-headed cabinet minister claiming that more metering would solve the problem.  The bone headed p*ss artist couldn't work out that the meters happened AFTER the leaks.

The bone-headed minister was quite right. It will solve HIS problem of sharing LESS water out among MORE people. Just force them to use less by pretending it's a scarce comodity. It's much cheaper than building a new reservoir and associated piping....
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Lt. Raen

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2010, 02:27:25 pm »

At the risk of sounding naive,  :-)
Although water will always be replenished through the hydrological cycle it is by no means an infinite resource at any given location.

For example you say that you can just build a new reservoir, however is this really a solution?
Reservoirs are very complex systems that rely highly on the geographical structure of the area you intend to build said reservoir in. This means that reservoirs cant just be constructed anywhere. You also need to factor in climatic condition to work out whether or not a reservoir would be viable. after all a reservoir in an area that doesn't receive enough rainfall to replenish the water reserves before those reserves are fully utilised is no reservoir at all.

If you don't change peoples attitudes towards the consumption of water you will still end up with the same issue we face (especially here in aus), just you will face the issue sometime in the future. If by simply changing peoples attitudes towards the use of something as simple as a watering hose can have a significant impact on the long term sustainability of the water supplies currently in use isn't it a good idea to try this?

Also desalination, although an option certainly has its faults as well. Desalination is a highly energy intensive process and can have severe environmental impacts on the area any plant is built.

And whilst i certainly believe that industry are the main reason for resource wastage I think we can all do something to stop the needless waste of our precious water.
And water is precious, at least i believe so.  :-))

Sorry if this offends
Tim
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2010, 03:52:26 pm »

.......
Sorry if this offends


You seem unwilling to consider any technological solution to the issue. Of course an appropriate site needs to be found for a reservoir, but long distance pipeline transmission has been shown to be perfectly feasible in many parts of the world. And a reservoir which cannot replenish it's reserves before it is empty is not 'no reservoir at all' it is just 'one that is not big enough'.


I am more concerned by your exhortations that people's attitudes must change to your view, which seems to refuse to consider a technical solution. What happens if they don't want their attitudes changed? Compared to industry and agriculture, watering hoses are such low users that they really do not have a significant impact on the long term sustainability of water supplies, unless those supplies are at a critical level already. In that case, provide some more!

I am not sure what the 'severe environmental impact' is on an area around a water desalination plant. Are you referring to the fact that you can't grow a plant on the concrete base of an ion exchange column?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2010, 05:10:01 pm »

I rather suspect that the greater proportion of water that falls as rain in the UK simply runs away down the drains and into the rivers. If we could collect and store more of it, particularly that element falling onto the built environment,  then there would be much less of a problem, maybe no problem at all. I have two large water butts in my garden fed from a half inch hose connected to the roof downpipe. Only a moderate amount or rain is needed to fill them quickly.

In the Mediterranean which has a much dryer climate, many houses have their own cisterns which collect rain during the winter to supply water during the summer months. Back in Roman times they constructed cisterns to collect run off which are the size of churches inside, you can still see them today.

There have also been ingenious proposals to use the canal syastem to move water around the country, I don't think the difficulties were found to be insuperable.

Colin
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2010, 10:06:03 pm »


Not taking sides but why do WE have to change our usage when we have been doing it all along WE are not the problem. <*<
In the North of the State, annual regular  tropical downpours are wasted. <:(
Suggestions to collect that water and pipe it South are deemed to too expensive. >:-o
That is a crock.  >>:-(
That logic was applied to the Snowy Mountains scheme in New South Wales & the Opera house but the Govt bit the bullet and they were both built. Both benefited NSW for years and put it on the map. :-))
Pollies no longer want to look ahead and plan for the future it requires brains and commonsense and doing what is best for th country not for themselves.
If there is a drought and water is short, cost is not a consideration if piping the water ends the drought, after all we MUST have water.
No they "Govt etc" want us to reduce usage to make more of the resource available to industry without increasing the cost to supply it to industry which in a lot of cases like water and electricity it is supplied free to get the industry to establish in the area/State.
We are paying for industries getting free utilities and we get slugged for increases to the infrastructure to supply more to those industries.
I am not convinced we are running out of water but do believe industry can use it better.
Example in the middle of the worst drought in or states history,Draconian  restrictions were in place for years, however Car washes were allowed and more car washes were built during the drought? {:-{ {:-{
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Lt. Raen

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2010, 01:00:48 am »

Well i am young (very young by some peoples standards  %) ) And so probably have a very jaded and biased view on the world  O0 . . .

I accepted that industry were the main reason for resource wastage in the world i was just trying to pose the question, does it really hurt us to use a little less? especially if using a little less doesn't even have to mean a great change in our normal routines?
Here in Sydney we had our water restrictions eased slightly to allow watering of the garden, not hard surfaces, but the garden at certain times of the day. i.e. early morning, late afternoon. This is a simple change that means not as much water is lost to evaporation.

You say that my example reservoir just needed to be larger DG. however, an infinitely large reservoir is not a feasible project. If you are using a dam that means that you are going to have to flood areas, so any low lying towns or villages in the area will be flooded. the bigger your dam the more area that is flooded. so I don't see how you can turn a poorly placed dam into a viable project just by increasing the size of the dam.
If that makes any sense.

however i accept that you are right in one respect, infrastructure. The infrastructure needs to be constructed by todays government for the future population. For some reason (unknown to me) governments seem unwilling to do anything that will truly benefit future generations if their are no rewards for those generations that are here now.

i must say that Sydney itself has not been in drought very often over the years. The problem is that because the Dams are placed in the most geographically sound place they could be the catchment area is in drought. Causing a lack of water for Sydney. This could have been solved if government, maybe a decade ago????, had seen a problem arising and enforced the addition of rainwater catchment systems and grey water reclamation systems on all new constructions. residential or industrial. This would have meant that all new buildings would have had their own supply of water, at least to some extent. But this didn't eventuate, in fact i don't think rainwater tanks are a compulsory addition to new constructions now either.
This would have meant that both industry and homeowners would have been using less water from the catchment areas without too much hassle.

Anyway sorry to be naive  {:-{
Tim

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dodgy geezer

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2010, 08:51:07 am »


Well i am young (very young by some peoples standards  %) ) And so probably have a very jaded and biased view on the world  O0 . . .


For 'jaded' and cynical, it's hard to beat an ex-Whitehall civil servant...


I accepted that industry were the main reason for resource wastage in the world i was just trying to pose the question, does it really hurt us to use a little less? especially if using a little less doesn't even have to mean a great change in our normal routines?

Oddly, I think it does. You can see why below...

You say that my example reservoir just needed to be larger DG. however, an infinitely large reservoir is not a feasible project.... so I don't see how you can turn a poorly placed dam into a viable project just by increasing the size of the dam...If that makes any sense.


You are quite correct - technology is not always a complete answer, and it always has to be the right technology. A poorly-placed dam will always underperform compared to a properly-placed one, and there are certainly large areas of the world where a dam/reservoir is not practical at all. My concern was rather with an implication I read into your words that, because dams have their own limitations and problems, technology should be rejected in favour of behaviour modification...


The infrastructure needs to be constructed by todays government for the future population. For some reason (unknown to me) governments seem unwilling to do anything that will truly benefit future generations if their are no rewards for those generations that are here now.


Aha! Here we come to the root of the problem, and the reason I pop up whenever I hear people extolling the benefits of saving and recycling. Are you sitting comfortably? Then |I'll begin.....

A long time ago, governments and civil servants saw themselves as mainly there to benefit the people. They ran foreign policy, and defence, and developed big country-wide infrastructure projects like railways, sewers, telecommunications, broadcasting and the National Grid.

They soon ended up with a lot of expensive equipment and services under their control, and, being civil servants, ran it quite inefficiently, without much commercial accumen.

Thatcherism changed all that. All this expensive infrastructure was sold to industry, who operated it much more efficiently than the civil servants. Look at the mobile phone explosion. Thatcherite ideas made a lot of profit for both government and industry, and were quickly copied all round the world. Unfortunately, civil servants work for the people, but industry works for profit....

As I indicated earlier, industry are always looking to maintain their profits, and will not invest in lifetime payback projects. They have politically-inspired financial disasters like the Channel Tunnel to show them what happens if they ignore profit predictions. So they will not invest heavily in new infrastructure unless, like phones, you can show a profit in 5 years or less. They will get as much as they can out of the existing infrastructure, and governments, having launched the idea, supported them in this, though they are now starting to have second thoughts...

Speaking generally, we have now used up all the slack that was built into the old infrastructure. Technology has helped this - we now run with many more trains on a track than 50 years ago, and our Grid is much nearer to 100% load - all enabled by computer technology. We badly need new and expanded services - indeed, in the UK I think it is already too late for electricity generation, and I anticipate rolling brown-outs in the next 10 years before we can get more power stations on line...

The industry is addressing this problem by trying to cut demand. It has stoked up an almost religous fervour for 'green environmentalism'. This is aimed squarely at the government regulators, who may be minded to 'force' companies to invest. The total savings you can get if the public turn off standby on TVs is miniscule, but if you can make it impossible for a government to consider a series of new power stations, you have saved your company and shareholders many billions.

This is managed by running advertising campaigns, working with environmental activists, with the aim of turning people off the whole idea of new technology. You may think it's odd - I couldn't possibly comment - but it makes perfect financial sense. Get people to reject the whole idea of new investment, as a religious duty, and you won't be forced to pay for any of it. That is why I try to encourage people to think about what lies behind the glib phrases and exhortations to 'Save a little bit'...

Eventually, of course, government will have to buy back the infrastructure from industry if they want it run for the benefit of the people. But  by then, the politicians who made their reputations in this way will be long dead.... 





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malcolmfrary

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2010, 02:30:50 pm »

Quote
For 'jaded' and cynical, it's hard to beat an ex-Whitehall civil servant...
Not cynical.  Cynical means not caring about the evil being perpetrated.  Sceptical, on the other hand, mean not believing the words of those giving the instructions for the particular evil.  You didn't need to be in Whitehall.

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Bee

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Re: Hosepipe Ban Coming?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 12:18:16 am »

I thought the problem was the increasing amount of water. Burning 1 unit of methane makes two units of water.
A few years ago the water companies were criticised because they like building reservoirs. A new reservoir is a capital asset increasing the share price, whereas if they just mend a leaking pipe they only have the same number of pipes they started with.
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