Topic: Moonbeam/J Class (sort of) (Read 18815 times)

ianb · « **on:** July 14, 2010, 09:02:50 am »

I built a Metcalfe Moonbeam last winter and am enjoying sailing immensely. As I sail alone, class rules really don't enter into any of my decisions on what to build next.

The NZ Canterbury J class interested me greatly, size just right, lovely classical design of the hull, no deep keel required, and a Bermuda rig. However my e-mail enquiries to the NZ club have either been returned as undeliverable or have gone unanswered.

A thought has been developing in my mind that I could buy another Moonbeam hull moulding and create my own version of a Canterbury J Class. I believe that the sails and all necessary hardware could be purchased from one of the many suppliers in Australia or Great Britain. For the sails I would use the Canterbury JClass specs as shown on their website. Two things are for certain, I don't have the skill or facilities to build my own hull to an acceptable standard.

I would really appreciate advice from you experts as to the following:

1/ is this a good idea or would I be better putting my efforts into something else with a better outcome eg. a complete kit
2/ which is better, aluminum mast or a wooden one (maybe hard to find a straight dowel 1.6m long)
3/ what is the best material for sails
4/ will a Bermuda rig point higher than the gaff rig on the Moonbeam
5/ is it a reasonable idea to use two sail winches, one for the main and one for the jib, with outputs mixed at the transmitter so that only one stick is used, and with the slave winch also having independent trim plus and minus on the Tx.

All criticism and suggestions welcomed. If I'm heading off in the wrong direction please let me know.

Thanks in advance

Ian

tigertiger · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:03:11 pm »

Hi Ian

All is doable.
I am no expert but here are my immediate thoughts.

1/ you could use a Moonbeam hull, as most of what people see will be above water. You could also have a go at making your own hull. Traplet do plans for the Britannia Technically is was what was called a 'big boat', but the 'J' developed from the Big Boat, if memory serves.

2/ Aluminium. The 'J' Class were really finely balanced (Unstable) and the effect will be exaggerated as you scale down. You need to keep your above waterline weight to the minimum. You may also need a bigger keel bulb than the Moonbeam.

3/ You can get Dacron sail material, it looks smooth and non plasticy. Or you can make your own from standard cotton bedsheets, treated with cotton waterproofer. The Dacron you can cut to shape, there is not need for hemming. You just need eyelets for the corners.

4/ Not sure.

5/ Yes it is reasonable to use two winches. Yes you could use the mixer on your Tx.
Or. You could join them by 'Y' lead and a crude solution would be to mover where the sheet joins the boom. Further down the boom (outward) will give more pulls per turn, of drum than than inwards. No need for mixing.
Or Use an ACTion Electronics servomorph. This will allow you alter the ends of turn on the winch.

I would still keep looking for 'J' build threads as it may save you some tears.

Good luck it sounds like a nice project.

a3nige · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2010, 12:55:10 pm »

Hi Ian,
Don't know if these will help but good luck with your project.

http://www.ludwigrcyachts.com/

http://www.classicsailboatmodels.com/

http://hardware.scalemodelco.com/

http://www.classicboat.co.uk/classnotes/252858/j-class

http://cmnc.hippocampe.free.fr/page.php?lang=FR&id_page=endeavour (Scroll to bottom of page for some amazing photo's)

http://www.worthmarine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?

Regards
Nige

tigertiger · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2010, 05:45:15 am »

Quote from: ianb on July 14, 2010, 09:02:50 am

4/ will a Bermuda rig point higher than the gaff rig on the Moonbeam

If I understand your meaning of pointing higher, yes.
If I misunderstand, look at the pics anyway.

This figure is taken from the book Enterprise to Endeavour: the J-Class Yachts (4th Ed) by Ian Dear

"Britannia had seven different rigs during her long career. They show
very well how sail plans changed and developed during her 42 years
of racing and cruising./ from The King's Britannia by John Irving"

Hope this helps.

ianb · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2010, 07:22:32 am »

Well, nobody has said that it is a dumb idea and I do know that it is not an idea to set the yachting fraternity on fire, but maybe I can achieve something that will suit me.

The evolution of the sail rigs on Brittania is fascinating, simpler seems to be best.

I have located a build blog for a 1/28 Enterprise http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/showthread.php?5781-1-28-scale-ENTERPRISE-1930&highlight=Claudio . This length is about right for me to transport and launch by myself, although the 72" hulls produced by ludwigrcyachts are quite really beautifu but they won't fit into my car. Thank you for those links Nige, they are a real inspiration.

Thank you also Tiger for your suggestions and comments, I'm sure you have headed me in the right direction.

I always have built from kits before, and this research is quite eye-opening. Something to occupy my spare time in the evenings this summer and fall.

Ian

kiwimodeller · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2010, 12:18:30 pm »

I have just been to the Christchurch Model Yacht Clubs page for the Canterbury J Class ( http://www.canterbury-j-class.org.nz/ ) and the pages all come up fine as does the building instructions and the email links to the clubs mentors. I am sure that I have read somewhere that they now have a U K agent who is stocking the hulls and lead keels. Our local group has four of these so far and they are certainly not delicate to sail, I am more than happy with mine and at 48" it is an ideal size. Cheers, Ian.

a3nige · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2010, 11:16:48 am »

Ian,
Do you have any pics of your boat please,
Nige

a3nige · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2010, 11:26:33 am »

Another couple of links

http://www.mjed.co.uk/jclassmodelyacht.html

http://www.pmycsail.com/catalog_1.html

I am looking for some deck plans of, preferably Endeavour in her rebuilt form, if anyone knows where to find such items, plans for J class seem to be like hen's teeth!

Thanks

Nige

ianb · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2010, 01:34:44 pm »

Nige,

What pictures are you interested in, my present Moonbeam?

I'll dig out some and post them if you want. Do you want sailing or 'on the stand' ones?

Ian

a3nige · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2010, 02:08:19 pm »

Hi,
Some of each would be nice, especially showing the rigging setup,
Thanks
Nige

JayDee · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2010, 03:50:43 pm »

Hello,

I have some info on the J Class Enterprise, BUT it is on PDF files.
The Forum wont allow me to upload them.
An email to me will get them to you.

john@john-dowd.co.uk

John.

ianb · « **Reply #11 on:** July 23, 2010, 08:18:30 am »

Somehow my last post seems to have been lost in the ether so here I go again.

Here are some pictures of my Moonbeam, I hope that they are of interest.

You may note a third side stay on each side. This was to prevent the mast raking forward, but has been removed because it has proven unnecessary. If I put lots of tension on the side stays then there appears to be no problem.

I did add a dolphin striker for the bowsprit because I felt that the upward forces on the bowsprit required some downward compensation.

The only problem that I have encountered is with the supplied cast deck fittings. The sheets sometimes become entangled in the ventilators when tacking or jybing, so I think that I will remove the fittings this winter. Other than that she sails very well and is surprisingly fast.

Ian

a3nige · « **Reply #12 on:** July 23, 2010, 09:06:46 am »

Thats a beautiful job Ian, the finish is fantastic.
Nige

hmsantrim · « **Reply #13 on:** July 23, 2010, 09:35:45 pm »

Hi Ian.
Found this one in USA the guy has THREE diffferent J class models to choose
from and I am Licking the screen.

http://www.ludwigrcyachts.com/j_class.htm

also http://www.officialjclass.org/secretary_report.htm

if you go to the home page you will see the east coast 12 meter or EC12m. This is another full keelled model and I think you
are like me in that you like this type of design as the hull has a nice underwater shape when its heeled over, and they dont
draw a lot of water, unlike your fin and bulb racers.

I know there`s a guy called Bob Underwood who does GRP scale sail model hulls but i don`t know where he based. I seem to
remember there were a few build articles in the MM mag of some schooners @ 5 years a ago which were on bob underwood
hulls.

cheers Frank

JayDee · « **Reply #14 on:** July 23, 2010, 10:58:45 pm »

Hello Frank,

You say "you are licking the screen"
I bet you dont lick the prices !!!!.

Been there, done that!.

John.

hmsantrim · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2010, 05:40:52 am »

Hi John.
No the prices are possibly a bit stiff but then we only supply the info and then its up to the requestee if he /she can afford to
part with the cash. Of course it allright for us who are sitting with a J class and don`t have our nose pressed against the shop
window wishing it was christmas.

I know there is a j class hull in Germany but I can`t remember where it is as I had a hard drive failure last month and lost a lot
of info from my favourites column.

maybe Ian would be better with a colin archer or a robbe atlantis a more affordable kit??

cheers Frank

JayDee · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2010, 12:02:39 pm »

Hello,

A source of hulls which could be converted into a near scale model of a J Class is how I got mine.
My hull was a old 10 Rater, the class is extremely competitive, old hulls quickly become obsolete and get sold on by their owners
to offset the cost of a new, up to date one.

Other Classes have the same problems, the "Marblehead" and the "A Class" boats are nearly out of date after one seasons racing.
It is a case of the "newer boats are better" - - maybe, but the Skipper has a lot to do with winning races too !!.

A trip to the local model boat Club, asking the members if they know of anyone who has an old hull which is not being used,
offer some cash and see what happens.
The chap with an old hull in his shed doesn't know you want to buy it, YOU have to do the chasing !.

The USA J Class hulls are over nine feet long, travelling with them could mean buying a new bigger car, or at least a fair sized trailer.
They are fantastic models, but, they are for racing other Js, buying one to sail solo, would be like having a Formula One car to go shopping !.
IF, I win the Lottery, I will buy one, AND I will have it built for me !!!!!!!.

John.

hmsantrim · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2010, 09:25:38 pm »

Hi John/ JayDee.
I am on the trail of the German J Klasse rumph. Foud a pix. just need to find retailer

cheers Frank

hmsantrim · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2010, 09:56:35 pm »

Hi Ian.
Found the "xxxxx" www.modellbau - liegau.de.

2 m- Hull J Class " RAINBOW "1934

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Offer Description : Hull the " RAINBOW "- winner of the Americas Cup 1934th After a Originalspantriss scale 1:19,46 , which results in a
Length : 200, Width 33 , Height keel to UK - OK- deck of 38 cm.
Material: FRP (polyester ) white colored, 3-4 ply .
Many of the current J-class boats were in the hull shape very similar, one could therefore , the construction and rigging of the " Endeavour " or " Shamrok choose .
The candidate will receive detailed documentation on the strengthening of my boat in words and pictures on my hompage
www.modellbau - liegau.de.

Hull lenght 6ft 8in Beam 13.25in price £201

seems reasonable if you compare it with the price of some of the current GRP warship hulls even shows you how to build it do the Germans do it better ofcourse they do.

cheers Frank

ianb · « **Reply #19 on:** July 28, 2010, 12:33:35 pm »

I really appreciate the interest shown by all the posters. Thank you all very much for your input.

Last week, I sent one last e-mail to an address on the Christchurch NZ club website. To my surprise it wasn't returned as "undeliverable" but a real live response came promptly back from a Mr. Robert Wing. Still don't know what happened to all my earlier e-mails.

So, it would appear that I can obtain a hull and all the necessary fittings for a Canterbury J Class. The hull length is just right for me to manage and transport by myself, and that was an important point for me.

Help will be available from NZ if I run into trouble, also an important item.

So it looks like a NZ Canterbury J for me, starting to build in the late fall or early winter.

Cheers
Ian

des321 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 28, 2010, 09:03:19 pm »

Hi Ian,
I like your Moonbeam. You have done a great job. Thanks for your comments about mine on a previous thread. You will remember we built them about the same time.
It's a bit strange but once again our ideas about boat builds seem to converge. I have been considering the J class for a little while. This thread has been very helpful. I notice you have come to the conclusion to go with the NZ offering, and a very sound choice it would look to be. I was on the point of sending an email to them when I remembered how you started this thread. I just measured my Moonbeam and it is exactly the same length hull as the NZ J class. It occurred to me that it ought to be possible to make/acquire a Bermudan rig to fit in place of the Moonbeam rig and thereby have two boats in one! Any thoughts?
Des

kiwimodeller · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2010, 11:38:21 am »

All three of us who have J's in our local group are very happy with how they go and it is important to us that they do not get tangled in the waterlillies or weed easily. It was also important to me that they were not too heavy or long to hump about and I have made a simple pair of rope loops with handles for launching and retreiving. The Christchurch club was very helpful during building and you can choose whether to buy everything or make fittings yourself. I am sure you will enjoy it. Cheers, Ian.

a3nige · « **Reply #22 on:** July 29, 2010, 11:44:05 am »

Kiwi Ian,
Do you have any pics of your J please.
Nige

a3nige · « **Reply #23 on:** July 29, 2010, 01:02:33 pm »

Just found this site. Fantastic photo's of building a big J.

http://www.pondboats.com/endeavour.htm

Nige

ianb · « **Reply #24 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:51:05 am »

Hi Des,

The Moonbeam is a lovely hull but the beam is a little wide for a J Class. Hence my uncertainty as to whether it would be appropriate to spend a lot of time trying to create a J Class representation from one. It seems quite "doable" to use Tiger's expression, but whether the result would look right did worry me.

The Canterbury J Class hull is a proven design with the added bonus of having a hull design more to scale. I really don't know how a Bermuda rig would work out on a Moonbeam. My feeling is that it would sail as well as with the gaff rig and maybe better, but that is only my feeling.The ability to fit a proper backstay would be a real plus

I would say, try it and see. My Moonbeam will stay the way she is, gaff rigged, because she really does sail very well and looks very elegant on the water. Don't want to mess with a winning combination!

If you do try a Bermuda rig on your Moonbeam I am certain that many people would be interested both in how you did it and in how it works out. Please let us know.

Good luck

Ian

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Author Topic: Moonbeam/J Class (sort of) (Read 18815 times)

hmsantrim

hmsantrim

hmsantrim

hmsantrim

des321