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Author Topic: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image  (Read 942 times)

derekwarner

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D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« on: February 23, 2020, 09:22:16 PM »

As with most things in life, there is [usually] always a reason ...however to train a 4.5" Gun Mount to 180 degrees requires one weapons computer systems 'pointing/non pointing zone' attributes to be racked out, with then a second computer controlled electro-hydraulic system override manually activated to enable the mount with the barrel to be trained and pointed toward the Bridge


In our RAN, such an exercise requires the explicit physical permission of the vessels Captain/Commander who then must also be in command of the vessel [on the bridge] during such an activity


After any maintenance work is carried out on a mounts training system, tests are conducted to prove that the mount cannot exceed its point positions



Could I suggest this image would not emblazen the walls of the Wardroom onboard HMS D23


Derek
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Derek Warner

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Rob47

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2020, 09:37:16 PM »

Done in roughers to protect gun and as she does not have one now or active wardroom does not matter


Bob
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derekwarner

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2020, 09:41:01 PM »



PS...thanks Rob...I did find this second image from the Falklands which points at ~~ near 180 train
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Derek Warner

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roycv

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 07:52:58 AM »

Hi Derek that picture reminded me of the quote/remark from the WW1 Wipers troops newsheet.  "Is it always wrong to shoot your commanding officer"?
Roy
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warspite

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 10:08:21 AM »

You would have thought that in these eco days that a way of collecting the shells to supplement the cost by selling to the local scrap merchant would be made, and that then the ecologists wouldn't go out and remark that polluting the seas with shell casings is not a good thing, especially as there are multiple programs on tv showing the casings flying out of the gun mount and rolling about on deck.


And yes I know this is from about 1982, talking about the current programs like that about HMS Duncan.
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Allnightin

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 08:24:27 PM »

In our RAN, such an exercise requires the explicit physical permission of the vessels Captain/Commander who then must also be in command of the vessel [on the bridge] during such an activity

My recollection from then as the officer of the watch on a Type 21 was that pointing the 4.5" Mk 8 gun aft was not considered a big deal and pretty much a routine part of securing for a passage through heavy weather.  I don't remember any special clearance being required  by higher command - or even the maintainer asking permission from the OOW before pointing it there.    The attached is of Alacrity making a farewell steam past the other Task Force ships before departing North when she needed repairs and maintenance including a worn out gun barrel.
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RST

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 08:38:24 PM »

You would have thought that in these eco days that a way of collecting the shells to supplement the cost by selling to the local scrap merchant would be made, and that then the ecologists wouldn't go out and remark that polluting the seas with shell casings is not a good thing, especially as there are multiple programs on tv showing the casings flying out of the gun mount and rolling about on deck.


And yes I know this is from about 1982, talking about the current programs like that about HMS Duncan.

I dunno about forces but in civvy street offshore oil and gas all our scrap always went to "ships welfare fund"  We'd take anything going by permission.  Until the company we "bought" but were actually "taken over by" put pay.  Halved welfare fund and no way to re-introduce scrap or much else to fill ships funds.  Tax, company rules bla bla.

Scrap skip got emptied every de-mob after and nothing in return (even for the company apparently, just written off).  Miserable so and so's!
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derekwarner

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 08:43:53 PM »

Apologies...I should have used the word....required, not requires

I was going back to Vickers 4.5" Twin Mounts, with the watertight security between the Mantlett Plates and the turret shell being low pressure air bags. In heavy seas, to keep the water out of the turret, the mounting could be trained to ~~180 degrees


Naturally the fire control systems in earlier years was not as sophisticated as today and as such differing levels of permissions/protocols were required to train a mount through non pointing/non firing zones


Derek
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grendel

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2020, 01:22:59 PM »

One company I worked for had a scrap copper skip, every scrap of copper had to go in there, nothing could be scrapped seperately - then we paid someone to come and empty it, one engineer was almost crying when he had to put 15000 of copper cable into the skip that he had allowed for the scrap value when he priced up his job, only to then see it going to the guy we had to pay to take it away.
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ballastanksian

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2020, 08:40:31 PM »

I will cry for him as that was criminal  <:( <:( <:( <:( Almost torture.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2020, 10:01:59 PM »


Pardon my ignorance of such thing, but what is the sweep ( training arc? ) of this type of gun?
( 4.5-inch Mark 8 Mod 0 naval gun? )

 just wondering if it could sweep past 180 to quickly reacquire target during high speed manoeuvres....?
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derekwarner

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2020, 11:30:23 PM »

Martin......the WIKI page for the Mk8 Mod 0 4.5"Naval Gun does not state full permissable angle of train or that the Mount is capable of the full 180 degrees train from 0.....however from the earlier comments from Alllnightin ....Officer of the Watch on a Type 21, this was the case


So if the mount were trained to ~~180 degrees [for heavy sea conditions] should the mount be required for service, I believe the system would return the mount to 0 degrees from the opposite direction as stowed, then the fire control system would take over


However not having any involvement with these series of newer ordinance, I could only defer to Alllnightin for a more definitive response

Derek
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Derek Warner

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Allnightin

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 10:10:44 AM »


Pardon my ignorance of such thing, but what is the sweep ( training arc? ) of this type of gun?
( 4.5-inch Mark 8 Mod 0 naval gun? )

 just wondering if it could sweep past 180 to quickly reacquire target during high speed manoeuvres....?


Martin,

It is at least 25 years since I last looked in the WSA4 drill book (the weapon control system for the T21 frigate ) so can't be 100% sure but I am pretty certain that if the 4.5" Mk8 was in the Aim condition (assigned to a specific target being tracked by a sensor such as the Type 912 FC radar and applying the necessary corrections to train ahead of a moving target such as an aircraft so that the shells should intercept it) and the gun approached the stern arcs, the first thing that would happen would be that the firing circuit would be interrupted to stop any more rounds being fired.  Bear in mind that if there is an appreciable target crossing rate the chances of a hit are much reduced and doctrine was only to engage tracks which are going to pass close to you and the correct drill would have already checked fire, bringing the gun to a stop. If the gun controller had still allowed it to follow the target it would then be brought to a stop automatically as it went past 180 degrees because the cables that connected the mounting to all the power supplies and signal  sources only allowed a limited amount of further rotation.  I am fairly sure that at that stage, before the gun  could be assigned to a fresh engagement,  it would have to be unwound by rotating back to the 0 degrees position. 

I can't remember the actual firing arcs on a T21 but they must be of the order of about 150 degrees either side of right ahead - you could get a better idea by measuring them on a plan if you have one.
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mudway

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Re: D23 - Not the Most Attractive Image
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2020, 12:06:37 PM »

Seems to have been a common practice for years.
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