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[malcolmfrary]

There is a big difference between the disposal of a legally bought item on the second hand market, or passing it on as a gift, and the creation of copies of items that are still available from the copyright holder.  There is really no such thing as "free" unless you are a politician, there IS "included in the price", but this is more cumbersome to write down.

[Prophet]

possession is 9/10th of the law if you own it paied for it etc then you should have the right to sell and repoduce the item you own without inflicting on others copyright, granted that in a lot of items it states that you cannot redistribute or copy as a copy right law, but in this particular case there was no terms and conditions to the purchase no contract signed stating what you can and cannot do, there for if you want to sell copy's of plans you own at a reasonable price then that your right to do so, other wise this whole issue of free plans being sold is actually company's breaching the original plans designers copyright ! making what there doing wrong as well .. so for a better word if they can do it why can't i?

And lets be honest im sure if there was a plan you wanted and you found it on here for only the cost of the print and postage so £5 in general.. saving you up to £15+ from a site would you really complain? i think not!

[Perkasaman2]

Hi TT, The relevant issues and info with regard to UK copyright are explored and defined here:     (The full Monty   )

http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law

RA Gunner has eloquently summarised significant aspects including many relevant underlying  principles.  

There are few grey areas if we restrict our focus to 'model' boats. Bone fide  non - commercial Mayhemmers can 'without fear or favour' enjoy their right to copy plans for the purposes of 'research or private study' within the conditions required, namely:

a)The copy is made for the purposes of research or private study.
b) The copy is made for non-commercial purposes.
c) The source of the material is acknowledged.
d)The person making the copy does not make copies of the material available for a number of people."

This restricted right to copy is intended to ensure 'Fair Dealing' as given/stated in the legislation. Fair dealing is a term used to describe some limited activities that are allowed without infringing copyright.
As model boat enthusiasts, research and the study of plans etc are important aspects to our hobby.
 
Hi Prophet, 2 wrong's don't make a right. You have boundaries around your home and others respect them - hopefully. If you own dogs and breed puppies you are entitled to sell them. However. it's illegal to take an original plan you've bought to the copyshop and sell duplicate copies. You did not draw the plan and since you do not have the copyright you cannot choose to distribute copies of it with a magazine. Possession was never 9/10 of the law...... it's a term coined by opportunists to justify keeping what does'nt  actually belong to them e. g. Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, etc.  
 

[malcolmfrary]

I've just checked a couple of old "free" plans.  They do carry a copyright statement.  If the plans in question originated as magazine freebies, they will likely have started life with such a statement on them, and any reproduced and sold without the agreement of the copyright holder become targets for litigation.  If any have had the copyright statement removed, that shifts from a small mistake (being charitable) to full-on, out and out, fraud.
As has been said before, multiple copying and distribution is deliberate denial of the benefits of the labours of the guy who did the drawing.  Apply that to yourself, and decide if you would be happy if you didn't get paid for working.  Adopt the principle that all such printed matter is there for the taking, without passing any reward back, and the supply of plans dies off in short order.  Then what do we do for new plans?

[The long Build]

Looking at the above site copyright ranges from 25 years to 125  so where do such Items as plans fit into this. 

[mersey dave]

It would seem that the days of helping out without treading on toes are in the days of the past. You can't have a hobby now without politics coming into it.

Regards Dave.

[Perkasaman2]

I think this is an unnecessarily gloomy view. Many commercial designs/plans are held in museum's both local and national, such as the National Maritime Museum and a large number of the companies which built the vessels and authored the plans are no more, e.g. the plans of British Power Boats. Many surviving / current builders need fear little from model boat builders who wish to simply make scale shapes/representations  of their craft, e.g. R N L I . We as modellers are'nt threatening competitors or commercial rivals and suspect that the majority of our subjects are relatively old and superceded designs.
The days of helping out have never been better, thanks to the internet and specialist forums such as Mayhem. A member need only ask for info/help on a specific craft they are researching (a potential build) and a response is more than likely. So called 'Free' plans won't dry up since they are a worthwhile selling feature for magazines.
This thread has extended modeller's choices and has'nt diminished them in any way..................... we are now better informed and can take some advantage from the knowledge gained. I now won't be listing my plan collection, however I shall assist another member's research  if I choose, on a one to one basis via our 'pm' facility or offer a general response by thread as appropriate.
The UK copyright regs  have'nt opened any 'flood gates'. My original plan collection is unmarked, since I always work from a 'working 'copy' or two onto which I can add measurements, re-draw propshaft angles and add/try out machinery frames/bearers to suit potential machinery choices/layouts. I can recall only one plan that I have purchased which was actually drawn in the scale I wanted and many others were in dire need of modernisation and re-drawing. I am more than happy to buy/swop second hand originals or receive gifted plans from generous hearted folk for research on my model boat projects (4 at the last count).  

[RaaArtyGunner]

Perkasaman,

Well said.

There is unnecessary paranoia and fixation about so called copyright infringement and repercussions.

Consider this,
In Brisbane, Australia you can go to any public library and photo copy the boat plans in the books such as "American PT boats in World War II, by Victor Chun" for the princely sum of 20cents per sheet.
You can then deal with those plans as you see fit up scale down scale whatever. No breach of copyright has occurred.
Alternatively and better option, borrow the book and photo copy plans etc. No charge for photo copying.
At the end of the day the results are the same.
Also if I have a bought copy of a "An.Anonymous" copyright destroyer plans, I can lend them to whomever I so choose.
 Where's the breach???????????????
The name of the game is to support, uplift and assist one another  without getting bogged down in unnecessary bureaucratic nonsense and paranoi about copyright.  

[Roger in France]

As a former Chief Trading Standards Officer I have had considerable experience of copyright enforcement.

I strongly disagreed with some of my colleagues who thought they were doing something important with public funds when they chased up street/market traders who sold poor copy tapes and videos. We saw some funny and stupid things, even videos made by someone holding a hand held camera in a cinema to copy a new released film!

Then their were the major fashion houses who expected me to spend public money investigating traders selling jeans etc which had their logos on the back pocket. My attitude was....if you make a pair of jeans using sweated labour in China for £2 and then hype them up and sell them for £50 you can protect your own interests and I am not spending public taxes protecting you. After all if someone wants to pay £20 for a pair of market stall jeans which has some fashion house logo on the pocket and they get decent wear from them and pleasure of ownership....so what? It is hardly going to bring a major fashion house to its knees.

On the other hand where we detected (and we did) major fraud raising funds for crime and terrorism then we acted.

I suggest a useful way to think of copyright is, "Is the copying being done to avoid payment?" Helping each other on a non-commercial basis is just not a problem.

Roger in France

[dodgy geezer]

Big companies who have based their business on selling commodities which can nowadays be easily copied, such as software or films, are anxious to stress the so-called 'intellectual property rights' aspect of copyright, as if there were no distinction between an item and an idea.

However, the concept of copyright was not originally intended to protect commercial monopoly of ideas and their expression, but to limit it. The Statute of Anne 1709 specifically provided for terms of 14 (which could be renewed once) and 21 years protection, after which all ideas and their expression reverted to the public domain. It was meant to be a bargain between society and 'learned men' - to encourage the writing of 'useful books' which would, after a period of monopoly, become the 'property' of society generally.


Companies, particularly in America, have fought against this since the rise of Hollywood, and have succeeded in upping this limit to the life of the author plus 50/70 years. That is approximately two lifetimes. They are trying to break their end of the bargain and  make it forever, hoping that people will forget that passing ideas into the public domain was (and still remains) an essential part of the copyright concept. Talking about copyright as if it were solely to do with protecting the justifiable commercial interests of a creator while ignoring its second aspect plays right into their hands. Particularly if the creator died years ago.....

[allnightin]

Can someone explain to me the basis that museums such IMM and IWM make such large charges for "copyright" of World War 2 photographs if you want to publish them in a magazine article?  If the original shot is over 50 years old surely it is out of copyright?

[derekwarner]

Could I suggest many member comments are valid....however do not address the question of who really profits from Copyright?

=         the Legal fraternity

Yes...these   silk robed.... lambswool capped creatures appearing as our mate...... [Rumpold of the Bailey.....appeared].....well these persons schemed & scammed & introduced Law to all forms of commodities as supplied to the general population

However these Legal minds realised there was more money to be made in protecting the said merchandise or ideas than that of the value of the commodities offered

One example of this was when the late George Harrison was taken to Court for blatant musical plagiarism by his rendition of "My Sweet Lord"....over a long lost American black gospal hymn...the case was found against Harrison & 82% of the costs awarded by the Court went in Legal fees...as there was/were no legal owner of the American black gospal hymn

I rest my case   ....Derek

[FullLeatherJacket]

I think a sense of proportion is required here. A model boat plan has a very limited earning potential for the designer - typically a one-off payment of a couple of hundred quid for a full article and the rights to sell copies of the plans - so any comparison with Hollywood blockbusters and designer clothing is a bit off the wall. It also has a pretty limited shelf-life for the holder of any publishing rights unless it becomes a 'classic'. Even then I doubt if  MyHobbyStore or Traplet gets orders from more than a dozen of any one plan in a year.

I don't like cheats, though. My little Swordsman plans were a freebie in Model Boats mag and I was happy to see copies of them exchanged between modellers who wanted to build one, but I got very angry when Stavros sent me a link to E-Bay where some nameless scumbag was flogging bad copies of them for profit. As you can imagine, Fleabay did nothing about this despite several protestations - presumably figuring that they'd take some commission from any sales he might make as opposed to making nothing from me. In consequence anyone can now obtain a copy of these plans in PDF format direct from me for the princely sum of nothing.

If you can't beat 'em then why not just spoil the game for 'em?

FLJ

[dodgy geezer]

Can someone explain to me the basis that museums such IMM and IWM make such large charges for "copyright" of World War 2 photographs if you want to publish them in a magazine article?  If the original shot is over 50 years old surely it is out of copyright?

Reading this may be of assistance? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act

Though it refers to an American law broadly the same legislation is enacted round the world...

[Colin Bishop]

One example of this was when the late George Harrison was taken to Court for blatant musical plagiarism by his rendition of "My Sweet Lord"....over a long lost American black gospal hymn...the case was found against Harrison & 82% of the costs awarded by the Court went in Legal fees...as there was/were no legal owner of the American black gospal hymn

That wasn't quite the way I remembered it, I thought the case was based on plaigarising an old hit by the Chiffons so I looked it up here: http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

Colin

[derekwarner]

Thankyou...I stand corrected Colin  ..."plaigarising an old hit by the Chiffons" .......however the remote principal still remains..... ....that the Legal fraternity profit ......  Derek

[Colin Bishop]

that the Legal fraternity profit ...... 

Can't disagree with that!

Colin

[Perkasaman2]

I remember 'Les Chiffons' Colin    

(Before any other cleverclogs takes credit, or plagiarises it, ............... MHS could hire the top half of a numerate (both metric and imperial )and dextrous  humanoid to provide a 'bespoke' plan service which supplies and despatches plans copied at a scale requested/decided  by the customer. This propensity could potentially save customers a lot of grief/hassle and additional expense, many of whom, don't have easy access to copyshops. A potential 'win' situation for all concerned.

A skilled operative on a modern plan copy machine can soon  calculate/measure 'enlargement/reduction %foibles' on the said machine and rapidly correct/adjust the extrapolated  innacuracies evident on some 'originals' which are often annoyingly, either under/oversized and produce accurate copies at alternative scales.

A new plan service   ' U SCALE' @'TRU SCALE' (My copyright*)


 * A herd of my  legal eagles are now standing by to negotiate my world patent rights and franchising.

(Hi Allnightin, the museums appear to be singing from the same 'hym sheet' in their desperate efforts to raise cash in this economic climate. Here's a link which refers in part to your questions about photographs and the duration of copyright:
http://www.museumscopyright.org.uk/private.pdf       .............................   (Is this earner 'tapping the admiral?' )

[Circlip]

But whose originals are you going to use Perkasaman??

  Regards  Ian

[Colin Bishop]

I think MyHobbyStore outsource the printing arrangements.

Realistically I doubt if the economics of the operation would justify much investment spending although they have been pushing the Plans Service more over the last few months.

The modern copying equipment is very good but when I had a plan scaled up at a local print shop recently a huge amount of paper was wasted in getting it to exactly the right size (200%) although that may have been down to the operator.

Colin

[Perkasaman2]

As with all franchise operations Ian,    .................the franchisee does ALL the work and I enjoy a huge fat fee per copy*.  

* U SCALE @ TRU SCALE All rights reserved. World patent pending  .  

 

[wbeedie]

Can someone explain to me the basis that museums such IMM and IWM make such large charges for "copyright" of World War 2 photographs if you want to publish them in a magazine article?  If the original shot is over 50 years old surely it is out of copyright?

Photos are generally 75 years copyright and if still making a profit it could last longer

[Perkasaman2]

There is certainly  a need for a 'one shop' plan service from model boat plan suppliers which can accurately enlarge/cut'n paste, prior to printing, especially for larger model sizes.  

(Copiers are 1% accurate - in theory.)
 

[Liverbudgie2]

Although not strictly relevant to this issue, you might want to follow this thread and inwardly digest.

http://forum.shipais.com/index.php?showtopic=10688

LB

[Netleyned]

There is certainly  a need for a 'one shop' plan service from model boat plan suppliers which can accurately enlarge/cut'n paste, prior to printing, especially for larger model sizes.  

(Copiers are 1% accurate - in theory.)
 

Dont you mean 99% 

Ned