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[mersey dave]

offer removed

[Colin Bishop]

It's OK to sell personal copies of plans you own but not to reproduce any that are currently on sale as that would be a breach of copyright. Some of the plans you have listed would appear to be on the MyHobbyStore Plans list.

Colin

[mersey dave]

ok will remove only trying to help other members

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

It's OK to sell personal copies of plans you own but not to reproduce any that are currently on sale as that would be a breach of copyright. Some of the plans you have listed would appear to be on the MyHobbyStore Plans list.

Colin

Only if that person "actually owns" the copyright.

I see a lot of websites that offer up plans that were once free,.. for a fee. 

[essex2visuvesi]

Only if that person "actually owns" the copyright.

I see a lot of websites that offer up plans that were once free,.. for a fee. 

If they are not charging for the Plan but only the cost of duplication, paper shipping etc then I see no real problem

[Martin13]

I see a lot of websites that offer up plans that were once free,.. for a fee.  

Totally agree with Umi.

I paid My Hobbystore 15 GBP for a plan including postage that was a freebie in the Model Boats Feb 2004 issue. I'm now minus 15 GBP and no plan

Fortunately a fellow Aussie member "Gra" has offered his copy for free....could have bought a few beers with 15 quid

Martin du

[Colin Bishop]

If they are not charging for the Plan but only the cost of duplication, paper shipping etc then I see no real problem

So you are quite comfortable with the idea of people ripping off kit manufacturer's hulls and selling them then?

Martin, it may just be lost in the post - have MHS refused to send you another? If so I'd argue with them a bit harder.

Colin

[mersey dave]

It looks like this topic is getting a bit heated, just to keep things in order the plans i have were purchased on a disk so all i was doing was sending these to any member free of charge via email to print out themselves. i did not see any harm in doing this but if it upsets the forum i will not bother, hence offer removed.

REGARDS DAVE.

[Colin Bishop]

Dave,

Yes it is a bit of a sensitive topic - not your fault - and has been discussed on a number of occasions on the Forum in one form or another. We do have quite a few trader members who also have pretty firm views on the subject as well as those who are in the 'everything should be free' camp. The intention behind your original offer is nevertheless appreciated. As you will appreciate, there are a lot of grey areas and what is acceptable to one person is not always the case with another!

Colin

[Circlip]

If you want to "Help" people Mersey Dave, do it subltuly, Via PM's 

  Regards  Ian

[essex2visuvesi]

So you are quite comfortable with the idea of people ripping off kit manufacturer's hulls and selling them then?

No not at all... I was refering to plans that are freely available in the public domain without copyright.
My apologies I should have been clearer with my first reply

[Martin13]

Martin, it may just be lost in the post - have MHS refused to send you another? If so I'd argue with them a bit harder.

Colin

I notified MHS and asked how item was dispatched/addressed/packaged etc, MHS came back with only stating item posted 20th Aug and no other information. I have purchased many items from the UK with delivery only taking 5 - 6 days. I'm reluctant to purchase anything from them now or in the future - I thought they would have least offered to send another copy.

Dave, thanks again for emailing me a copy of that tug plan on the other forum (this was also a freebie plan from a magazine)

Martin du

[Circlip]

The Postal services can't even do "Local" deliveries properly Martin. Sent a litre of Steam Oil from Bradford to Portsmouth via £4.50 First Class Post in June, still waiting, claim was submitted to Plymouth in July (cos you've to wait a month in case the "Next Day" or "At least a week" service doesn't work) and am still waiting for acknowledgement.

  Postage to Oz? Hire a runner with a cleft stick.

  Regards Ian.

[Martin13]

The Postal services can't even do "Local" deliveries properly Martin. Sent a litre of Steam Oil from Bradford to Portsmouth via £4.50 First Class Post in June, still waiting, claim was submitted to Plymouth in July (cos you've to wait a month in case the "Next Day" or "At least a week" service doesn't work) and am still waiting for acknowledgement.

  Postage to Oz? Hire a runner with a cleft stick.

  Regards Ian.

I think 5 to 6 days from the UK is a great service. It takes about 10 days from the USA and about 5 days from anywhere interstate in Oz. For some unknown reason it always appears to take longer in your own country. Don't figure

Mdu

[Perkasaman2]

The majority of modellers probably routinely breach the general conditions of copyright  by re-scaling and /or duplicating plans for cutting out etc. Dave has'nt upset the 'forum' at all.   Colin is (one member amongst 4000+) simply protecting the financial interest of his employer.   Mersey Dave could of course offer to 'loan' his plan to forum members (at their postage costs) for perusal and they can decide whether or not to buy a copy. These are tough times for many of us and Dave's altruism is commendable and appreciated. I would be very happy to list my plans for loan to assist the research of other Mayhemmers.    

[Martin (Admin)]

There are quite a few "Free" ( copyright free ) plans on 'tinternet', maybe we can start a list....

[Colin Bishop]

Colin is (one member amongst 4000+) simply protecting the financial interest of his employer.

Not quite correct as I work for MyHobbyStore in a freelance capacity and don't consider myself as an employee as such. However, my comments were prompted by the wider context. Working for MHS and doing interviews with many of the model boating traders has brought home to me just how little money there really is in the commercial side of this hobby. MHS is not a big company, Model Boats is produced by one and a half staff and I'm sure that a similar situation applies to Marine Modelling as well. Most of our well known traders are 'cottage industries' or small family businesses and can be significantly affected by outsiders ripping them off. Obviously Dave doesn't fall into that category but we have had examples where traders have been targeted by people producing counterfeit hulls etc.

A plan may be included free with a magazine issue but it has cost money to commission and produce and so it is usually added subsequently to the Plans Service to hopefully bring in a bit of future income. Traders, including MHS, are in business to make a profit after all. Realistically, I don't think anyone is going to be much concerned if you copy something to help out a mate in a particular circumstance or reproduce a 30 year old article. It's when you start advertising in bulk on Ebay etc. that the problems start.

It's in all our interests not to undermine the commercial side of the hobby which is just comprised of people trying to make a living. Otherwise there would be no magazines, reasonably priced hulls and electronic gear etc.

As in all things, moderation should be the keyword.

Colin

[cbr900]

Colin,

That read a bit odd to me, they are staffed by one and a half people, he could
be in trouble for child labour........



Roy

[Colin Bishop]

That read a bit odd to me, they are staffed by one and a half people, he could
be in trouble for child labour........

OK, 1.5fte, both working from home then. 

Colin

[jules64]

There are quite a few "Free" ( copyright free ) plans on 'tinternet', maybe we can start a list....

This is an interesting site.

http://www.john-tom.com/RcShip/RCship.html

Best wishes
Jules

[mersey dave]

There are quite a few "Free" ( copyright free ) plans on 'tinternet', maybe we can start a list....

VERY GOOD IDEA,

[amdaylight]

Greetings,

In the US regarding copyright laws and how they relate to plans, I have the right to make copies of the plans to aid in my model making endeavors. I do not have the right to sell those copies. I do have the right to the sell the original set that I bought from the designer just like I can sell a used book that I bought.

Andre

[Perkasaman2]

Hi Andre, The law is quite similar in the UK for model boat plans. They are within the category of 'artistic work' in our legislation:

"Copying parts of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work or of a typographical arrangement of a published edition for the purpose of
 research or private study is allowed under the following conditions:
 a)The copy is made for the purposes of research or private study.
 b) The copy is made for non-commercial purposes.
 c) The source of the material is acknowledged.
 d)The person making the copy does not make copies of the material available for a number of people."             

[tigertiger]

That is for literature (books), and may not apply to plans (are they really legally classed as artistic work?)

I have seen plans for 1:1 boats and in the conditions of sale they can not be copied and can only be used to build one  boat. If I wanted to build a second boat I would have to purchase a second set of plans.

As for the 'free plans' that came with a magazine, you had to buy the magazine. The plans were a 'gift'. And so paying for production and postage of plans (many years after they were first gifted) is justifiable, giving them away for free would be illogical.

This whole area is very grey.
Lots of opinions on the subject.

[RaaArtyGunner]

As for the 'free plans' that came with a magazine, you had to buy the magazine. The plans were a 'gift'. And so paying for production and postage of plans (many years after they were first gifted) is justifiable, giving them away for free would be illogical.

This whole area is very grey.
Lots of opinions on the subject. 

It is really quite simple from down under, because if a case was to be made it would have to be proved that there was financial gain, that is copying and selling the copies, therefore a breach, if not (giving them away) no breach.

There is also a fixation on using 'free' incorrectly, as you had to buy the magazine they were not a gift but paid for as part of the transaction.

Remember the transaction (contract, offer and acceptance) is buy the mag and get the plan. As the plan is not Gifted you can give it away to however or whoever you so choose.

Bear in mind that copyright laws throughout the world are basically similar in context and allow for the disposal of copyright material by a legitmate owner who has paid the copyright fee.

Such as purchased Model boats magazine. To say I cannot give them away is pulling a long bow.

And if it is OK to sell copies of magazines why not plans ??? The principle and statute (copyright) is the same.

Generally the yardstick is what would a reasonable person do or think???