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[Martin (Admin)]

Is that soldering your work HS93? Nice!
Thanks for making me feel even more inadequate!  :-\ 

[HS93 (RIP)]

ER sorry yes   peter

[John W E]

Hi ya MikeK

Ive got a feeling the problem was not your abilities to solder, nor the equipment you were using - but the actual brass material that you used.   Like everything else in this world - it varies - you get hard brass and you can get soft brass, depending on the metal mix.  Sounds as though there has been a good amount of copper in the brass that you used - because if we go back to our school days (NOT THE NURSE) but the metalwork classes  you heat copper up to cherry red to anneal it.

Aye Martin, dont some people just make you sick - you try all your life to do a good job and somebody comes and posts a couple of pics on this forum and makes ya work look rubbish. One hell of a good piece of soldering HS93.

Aye
John E
bluebird

[MikeK]

Thanks for the advice Peter and John. You were probably right John as I seem to remember the brass was pinched from the engineers box of bitsas and they tended to play with the softer stuff. I take my hat off on your handywork in the pics Peter, I am ashamed of the simple jib racks I made, when even the row of holes meandered happily either side of a straight line,  :-\ :-\ your work looks perfect.
Maybe, just maybe, my drilling/soldering has improved with time, but I doubt it

MikeK

[Seaspray]

I take it that you had heat sinks on the brass they got to be right too much and too little and its chewy.

 I think the material we buy today isn't a patch on yesterday years  material.

[MikeK]

I take it that you had heat sinks on the brass they got to be right too much and too little and its chewy.

 I think the material we buy today isn't a patch on yesterday years  material.

That goes with most things nowadays. I'll have another go bye and bye when I get the hull finished. Must go and kill off that chicken that's appeared at the bottom of my space, it's annoying !!

MikeK

[HS93 (RIP)]

  MikeK     

I use K & S brass from model shops. I buy a selection of shapes and sheet and then work out what will fit,Also use college supply for odd bits, I bin quite a bit as well so  dont worry If it does not go right at first soldering is one of them things that will suddenly click with you, you just have to play about and try different methods till you find one that works for you , Ive been doing it a long time ,and the main thing I have learnt is to clean clean clean.and use bakers fluid .  peter

[MikeK]

Thanks for the advice Peter - the words 'green' and 'envy' come to mind looking at your pics 

MikeK

[Shipmate60]

Those parts look superb Peter.

Bob

[HS93 (RIP)]

Yes but you can all paint models,   you want to see the mess I make,  or not. they look like a cat has been sick on them,, I just hate paint ..allways have ..you would think after forty five years of modeling I would be able to make a passable job   but no they allways look crap.. Peter

[Seaspray]

Clean joint and Bakers fluid two thirds of the way there.

My first lesson in soldering was..the foreman cut a piece of copper pipe an inch long put it end on a piece of sheet metal.Got some Bakers fluid and put a little smidgen around the point of contact of the two.Melted a small piece of solder off the stick on to the edge of the two pieces to be joined. Took the gas torch and  chased or teased the lump of solder round the joint. Couldn't believe what I had seen till he showed me how to do it. Hint a little solder goes a long way a lot goes everywhere.

[tigertiger]

Yes but you can all paint models,   you want to see the mess I make,  or not. they look like a cat has been sick on them,, I just hate paint ..allways have ..you would think after forty five years of modeling I would be able to make a passable job   but no they allways look crap.. Peter

You could do a skills exchange.

'you paant my boat and I'll do yer railin's for yer mate'

[badbunny]

I tried to solder some brass rods together the other night, with just fluxed solder. The results were pathetic!  :'(
I'm guessing this Baker's fluid is the way to go! I've had a look and found this on the net: "Baker's Soldering Fluid No.3" - is this the product?
Do you know if it is distributed at any common local stores like Maplin (I can't find it anywhere except mail order and hate paying postage of a similar price to the product itself!).

Also, I saw this on another forum...
"Flux. Get a separate flux and use it. Multicore solder is designed for icky-bitty wires and plated tabs, not anaconda-thick multi-strand cable and stout copper plates. Avoid Bakers Fluid (it's acid) and go for a good quality tin of flux - and did I say always use it!"

...when it says the Bakers Fluid is acid, I'm assuming it means that the flux corrodes the joint after you have soldered, and presumably continues to corrode it? Is there a special cleaning process you need to do after soldering with bakers fluid to prevent this from happening?

Peter.

[RickF]

Peter,

I always use flux paste, which I generally obtain in a small screw-top tub from my local plumbing supplier - there's bound to be one near you.

Rick

[HS93 (RIP)]

Badbunny was it a site from across the pond that did not like Bakers fluid ? resin core solder can cause problems when it comes to paint... to kill of bakers fluid just wash in hot soapy water fairy liquid and that does if you look above that Had been made about 9 months and had not fallen apart due to bakers fluid if its larger pieces of brass use silver solder as soft solder is not very good for that.
bakers fluid can be got from chronos


Peter

[Voyager]

Nice brass work HS93 You've got it down to a fine art, seems a shame to paint the brass when it looks that good :(

[DickyD]

I tried to solder some brass rods together the other night, with just fluxed solder. The results were pathetic!  :'(
I'm guessing this Baker's fluid is the way to go! I've had a look and found this on the net: "Baker's Soldering Fluid No.3" - is this the product?
Do you know if it is distributed at any common local stores like Maplin (I can't find it anywhere except mail order and hate paying postage of a similar price to the product itself!).

Peter.

B&Q do several different types of flux paste i.e. for leaded or lead free solder

http://www.diy.com/diy/jsp/bq/nav/nav.jsp?isSearch=true&fh_search=soldering+flux&selected=products

 

I am afraid if it is the "Baker's Soldering Fluid No.3" you are set on it looks like you will have to go the internet route.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/find.asp?pricing=INC&cid=VPS4AHKZYD05X2W074QINTFWS5WNQG7Y

 

[malcolmfrary]

I've always been a structural soldering numpty, having spent my working days as a wire bender, but one thing I noticed about heat sinks was that it was always a GOOD IDEA to remove the heat sink as soon as possible after the iron had done its job.  This was because the heat sink was perfectly capable of returning unwanted heat back into the job.

[Colin H]

I have just read through these postings and whilst I agree with some of what has been said there are lots of comments that are incorrect. The advice below does not relate to circuit boards and only applies to soldering brass, copper steel etc.

I was taught to solder both soft and silver back when I started as an appro back in 1961 and have used solder of one sort or another every working day since. Soldering is not a black art. All it takes is a little patience and for you to follow the rules. This is also the only subject I can offer advice on as I look in amazement ay everyone else's work.

Rule one Cleanliness before you start clean everything right down to cleaning your solder, dirty solder will carry dirt into the joint.

Rule two Use the correct flux, solder and heat source.

Rule three CLEANLINESS have you cleaned everything correctly.

Rule four As soon as you have cleaned the materials to be soldered flux them. Flux prevents oxidisation. Oxidisation means DIRTY.

Rule five CLEANLINESS have you cleaned everything perfectly.

Rule six Are the materials to be soldered immobile. The slightest movement as the solder solidifies will crack the joint. This is the most common cause of leaks on pipework as people rush to get things done.

Rule seven CLEANLINESS You have probably gathered by now if it is not clean it will be a poor job. A quote form my first fitter back in 1961. `People say that Godliness is next to CLEANLINESS, but God wont help you if it is not BL--DY CLEAN`. This quote was accompanied by a smart clip round the ear. He had just tested a copper pipe to lead pipe joint by belting it on the bench the joint broke. This was unforgivable the lead pipe should have sheared before the joint broke.

I must go now SWMBO has called dinner will be back with heat source's flux' and solder later.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Hi Chaps, Lovely dinner but I would say that when SWMBO is watching.

Soldering did I mention CLEANLINESS!

Heat source's. These are my personal preferences and are of course influenced by how I was taught.

I have two electric irons but use these only on electrical work I find that (a) they are not ususally hot enough for the way I work and (b) they do not hold enough latent heat to complete any bu the smallest job in a reasonable fashion. I then have three what the general public would call blow lamps of varying sizes. A small version of a ox/acetylene set up using Map gas and compressed air and of course a selection of old fashioned irons though I tend not to use these now.

Most of my small work is done with one or other of the so called blow lamps.

The most controllable of these is an original blow lamp now know as a mouth lamp. The basis of this goes back many many years. It is a brass tube of some 2" DOA x 6" long sealed at the bottom and with a double screwed cap at the top. Remove the first cap to reveal a wick of some 1 1/4" DOA, the second cap is removed to fill the bottle with maths. A shaped 1/8" brass tube extends up the side of the lamp and is bent over to point at the flame produced by the wick. Now all we do is fit a rubber tube to the brass tube, place the rubber tube in your mouth and blow. By varying the amount of puff and the height of the tube facing the flame it is possible to solder a cup joint upside down or at the other end of the scale produce enough heat to solder a 22mm copper pipe joint. Now everyone knows where the term `blow lamp` came from.

Working up in size my next lamp at what is known in the UK as B & Q depot for less than twenty pounds. The kit consists of a miniature blow lamp refillable with lighter gas & three or four different soldering iron tips. This lamp gets lots of use for small work as it is very convenient and easy to use producing a good amount of heat in a very localised area, using the tips is also very easy. If you were restricted to one heat source for modeling then this is the one I would recommend, for price and versatility.

Going on from this I have a standard plumbers type propane torch though I find very little use for this whilst modeling as the spread of heat could be disastrous, although it can be handy fro preheating larger lumps.

The Map gas/compressed air set up is used for silver soldering only and not being into steam plants I find little use for this during modeling as normal soft soldering correctly done is of adequate strength.

More later Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Whoops,

For Map read Mapp.

For DOA read Dia.

For maths read meths.

Flipping splock cheker

Colin H

[Colin H]

Back again tonight flux.

Most people have the wrong idea about flux, some think it acts like an oil for the solder, some think it helps clean the metals to be joined. Whilst there is some truth in both the above the first and main job of flux is to prevent oxidisation during the heating period.

Remember oxidisation means DIRT our main enemy.

There are as many different type's and brands of flux as the are hairs on a dog and most people have a favorite. Therefore my selection of flux is not the be all and end all. It just works for me.

For silver soldering and or brazing I personally use products by Castolin Eutectic a simple powder flux matchedwith the appropriate eutectic rod. Eutectic in this sense of course is a term indicating an alloy of metals meant to have a lower melting point than the original. So the term eutectic rod is much used.

For soft solder I have in the workshop three types of flux.

(a) Bakers fluid this is a very old flux. I first came into contact with it early in my working life being used by tinsmiths who were using the old type soldering irons (heated in a gas flame) to make gas meters. I have used it ever since when working with this type of iron, maybe I was influenced by watching those guys. They made it looked do easy and of course the joints were perfect no need for wiping or filing here.

(b) Yorkshire traditional flux. Again one from my youth, it was the flux of choice in my appro years long before it became Traditional.
This is a non aggressive flux, easy to clean off and I still use it a lot on both brass, copper and lead.

(c) La-Co this flux originated I believe in the USA. It is a slightly aggressive flux which will make soldering easier for the beginner but will require more work to clean it off prior to painting. Even if you are not going to paint your work you will need to be very careful about cleaning as the flux its self will continue to work and discolour the work piece. The green stains seen round joints on copper pipework in your home or place of work are a sure sign of some form of aggressive flux. This flux can also be used on steel with success.

Yours Colin H.

[boatmadman]

So what do you recommend for removing flux after soldering and prior to painting?

[Colin H]

I feel in the mood tonight and so on to solders. I really don't know quite were to start with this one. There are so many and all have their uses. Before I begin please remember when I talk about the strength of soft solder I DO NOT build steam plants and would never advocate the use of soft solder for this kind of work.

As an example of the kind of work a correctly made soft soldered joint will do I can do no better than to tell you a story.

Some years ago when we caught the bus and walked to work I was on a site in the middle of no where. My last task of the day was to make good to the brick work round a couple of gas flues, as I moved on to the second the welded joint on my pointing trowel broke and the blade clattered to the floor. Nothing ventured nothing gained I decided that instead of returning in the morning I would attempt a `temporary` repair with solder. I carefully filed away all the weld on both piece's and then polished the surface with steel wool. Using an old fashioned solder paste which contained a very aggressive flux and tin/lead solder I rejoined the two parts not knowing whether it would work or not. It did I completed my days work (we were on bonus) and went home. The next day I forgot to get a replacement trowel and so again used the repaired one. After a week of forgetting to replace the trowel I forgot I had repaired same. That trowel was in daily use for some 18 months before the two sections parted reminding me to get a replacement.

Solders as I have said for silver soldering and brazing (when I can be bothered) I use eutectic rods with the correct powder flux.

For model making and general use I find that soft solder in one of its various forms more than adequate, once again the solders I use are my personal choice and others will have there preference to. Old rule of thumb if it ain't broke don't fix it so if you find something that works for you stay with it.

In my workshop I have several different types of soft solder.

Rosin cored about 1mm dia purely for use with an electric iron on electrical works I personally use neither electric iron or cored solder for anything else.

Standard tin/lead solder on a reel for general use. This is still available from all plumbers merchants in the UK.

Tinsmans solder for use with the old fashioned irons. This solder contains slightly more tin than standard, is harder and less able to take certain stress's.

Plumbers solder, by this I mean the old fashioned sort that was used to form the onion joints our older members will recall. This solder is designed to remain in a `plastic` state for some considerable time. I.E. it is neither fully molten nor hard. It was during this plastic state that the plumbers of old used their wipe cloths to form those lovely shaped joints on lead pipe.  I have yet to find a use for this in the modeling world but its not eating any bread so it stays on the shelve just in case.

The above should really be all you need for modeling type work and for most of the time I suspect that the standard tin/lead solder would suffice.

Yours Colin H.

[Colin H]

Hi for cleaning it really depends on the flux and the location of the work piece. By this I mean if the work piece is on the model you would have to be careful if you were using any form of aggressive cleaning agent. With Yorkshire traditional flux plenty of soapy water will do the trick and it is quite easy to see/feel when the item is clean. If you can find an old gas meter with lead pipework you will find no discolouration on the brass to lead joints and these joints would only have been wiped with a cloth whilst still warm. With the more aggressive type of flux soapy water can work but you need more time and work so if possible I use some form of spirit first.

Hope this helps Colin H.