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Author Topic: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!  (Read 17831 times)

Perkasaman2

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2010, 02:34:59 pm »

Hi woody294, I've re-read the thread/posts and feel that your dad's original 'gut' feelings were much closer to the original design of this boat than he realised and worth re-consideration.
The Sea Queen and Huntsman kits have near identical 'Vee' hulls and both kits were intended  for the  marinised  i.c. aero engine/single prop propulsion of this earlier era and now sold, many years later, largely unchanged as 'classic' model kits. The S.Q.  kit is a modern re-manufacture which has been 'slightly' modified for a single electric motor. This clip is a build with a glow plug .61 i.c./single prop:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqBLIpfdbKU

The Huntsman kit is a popular 'evergreen' design based on the famous Fairey offshore boat which achieved fame and some success in 'offshore' competition at Cowes for some years. The Sea Queen hull is a near identical design to the Huntsman and both models share 'vices and virtues' inherent  to both the Fairey hull form  and the limitations of these elderly single prop kit designs.
The original boat/hull was designed for twin shaft/props/rudders.These kit designs were adapted to suit the only power source available to modellers at the time to get these large/heavy 4 footers planing. This expediency added a second layer of problems and issues which aggravated the stability and handling of this hull form which modellers  experienced, especially in turns etc. when planing.

Be guided and inspired by the original............. You and dad can adapt the kit and 'personalise' 'your' boat......... get the hacksaw out and modify/adapt the existing and return it correctly to twin everything as the original designer intended............  it's a lot more fun and offers the challenge your dad was interested in taking up for enjoying. You are a team with more than enough skillsets to research/modify and build it.............. it's your cash/effort and enthusiasm which is at stake.
All the equipment apart from the shafts and riudders you buy for  SQ will easily transfer to other large/planing boats of similar size you may wish to build in the future .......... MTB/MGB, RNLI etc. or use/swop the gear to power a pair of single proppers when the mood takes you. Buy multi-channel rc gear (minimum 3/4 channel) and you can use it for any of your builds. Unless you want to fit a bow thruster, then a mixer is unnecessary and a lot less fun than 'twin stick/throttle' or 'tank steering' on 3 channel with independant matched esc's which gives all the handling options of independant control on both props that the original craft enjoyed.  :-)

(I entirely agree with Peter on the points he's raised re. the single brushless route.)
 

  



  
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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2010, 05:30:23 pm »


The Sea Queen and Huntsman kits have near identical 'Vee' hulls ...
  

I thought the Sea Queen has a much flatter hull at the stern for planing, while the Huntsman 'V' continues all the way to the transom? And were the original Huntsman's props quite close together at the centre? Almost like a single prop...?
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Perkasaman2

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2010, 09:01:12 pm »

Hi DG, The non-race or standard craft were fitted with 2 x 250hp diesels, however the racing versions tended to use tuned American V8 units with much more hp. The shafts/props were not located equidistant between the centre line and chine at the transom  which is a common alignment rather they were less/slightly closer to the hull centre line to keep the heavy engine/gearbox and drive line as close as was practical to the centreline and also ensure that this weight was mounted as low/close to the keel line as possible to aid stability. This arrangement also helped in keeping the props lower and more submerged when planing. Both models exhibit a reduced, but distinct' vee' at the stern compared to the original boat and plan. There was some variation in stern vee between the Fairey types and the Huntsman was built in two sizes (28' and 32') and their sterns  and degree of vee were not the same. As for the original twin prop arrangement acting like a single prop.... neutral handling is a real advantage when running a high performance hull.
I am writing from memory, however there are plenty of photos among the Huntsman threads on Mayhem for comparison with those of the Sea queen given here and available on the kit seller's site.
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red181

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2010, 11:39:34 pm »

I'm the one with the brushless Huntsman :-)) that HS93 worked on. Its way over scale speed, and goes like a rocket. It handles perfectly, which seems to be a contradiction with most of the other recent Huntsman builds, but all this comes at a price. High speed and run times are not partners! I run on 6 cells lipo 5000mah, and on a 2.5:1 gear ratio, thats 15 mins flat out. Lead acid would be completely useless in this boat, they cannot give up the amps quick enough, even my 4600 mah nims will not produce the lipo performance. I run a number pf props, depending on the sailing venue, most used is a 52.5mm 2 blade "x" prop

Now, if I was building it again, I would do twin screw (as per real boat) and it would be direct drive to a pair of brushless giant cod (way cheaper than westbourne) motors, like the sea queen on fireboat site, this setup is far more efficient than mine, which is now 12 months old. Its amazing how much cheaper lipo/brushless setups have become in the last 12 months, many of the large chinese suppliers dont even stock brushed motors and  nimn/nicads now, just lipo, so the future is upon us! ok2

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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2010, 12:02:14 am »

.... This arrangement also helped in keeping the props lower and more submerged when planing. ...

Yup - my concern was that a flatter-hulled Sea Queen might have trouble keeping the outer prop submerged during a turn, especially if they were quite wide apart.... 
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2010, 05:53:27 pm »

Ah cool, thanks all!

So I guess I'll have to ring my dad and tell him he was right, haha.

Ok, twin motors, does it need to have twin rudders to match the motors? I'm finding it very hard to select some brushless motors because all I've managed to find out is that they don't directly compare to brushed.

I think I understand Lithium Polymer batteries now, I haven't read into how to go about making sure they don't go under voltage though, I understand there is some kind of alarm system you can put in place.

I'd like it to run for around an hour without having to muck around changing batteries but I don't want to spend a fortune on batteries either. Can anyone recommend a motors/batteries combo?

Noted about buying a Tx/Rx'er with more than just 2 channels, I can see the benefit of buying one with 3/4 channels for future possible changes etc.

He's more than likely going to be doing the woodwork without me being there so I shall advise him not to put the two prop shafts too far apart. Should he be keeping the same position (fore/aft) and angle/location of exit from the hull as the original one?

Thanks again all, this is all very helpful!!
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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2010, 10:49:20 pm »


I think I understand Lithium Polymer batteries now, I haven't read into how to go about making sure they don't go under voltage though, I understand there is some kind of alarm system you can put in place.


Usually your ESC handles that.

Boaters are a minority - most brushless motors and ESCs are made for aircraft. They like to have a system whereby the motor cuts out when the voltage drops below a certain figure (though the ESC still continues to feed the receiver and servos. The aircraft can then be glided in. That is probably the way your ESC will work.

Of course, while that is fine for the flyers, it's not so helpful for a boat in the middle of the pond...
 
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2010, 03:33:26 pm »

Yeah I can see how that would be a problem! Is that why so many people have tugs?  {-)

Seriously though, I'm guessing that I could rig another kind of warning circuit in place, maybe an LED on the boat? Although that wouldn't really be very visible if it was sunny... I'm thinking a small solenoid, a sprung flag to pop up, or other indicator, am I being a lunatic?
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PMK

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2010, 04:15:47 pm »

I'm guessing that I could rig another kind of warning circuit in place, maybe an LED on the boat? Although that wouldn't really be very visible if it was sunny...

Super-bright LEDs would resolve the sunshine/visibility issue. Apart from that you might want to point your browser here:  http://www.dawnmist.demon.co.uk/rcm.htm#2
It doesn't do pop-up flaps or such, but it does have a pretty clear audio warning indicator.
Good luck.

DG: If you're earwigging, bear with me - I shall reply to your PM. My excuse for the delay is down to more hospital visits and I'm still feeling a tad lethargic/lazy just now.

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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2010, 04:29:55 pm »


Seriously though, I'm guessing that I could rig another kind of warning circuit in place, maybe an LED on the boat?


I suppose that what I was trying to say was that, if you go for a cheapish ESC, you probably won't have a choice - the motor will be cut out when the volts drop below a figure built into the ESC. And it probably won't have a reverse.

You can get ESCs developed specifically for boats and cars - these have reverse and may have a more friendly voltage cut-out feature - I know very little about the different ESCs. I know just enough to be aware that there are some non-intuitive features of brushless ESCs - setting up can sometimes be tricky, for instance - and  they tend not to have good low speed controls. Ideally you should get advice from someone on the board with a bit of experience in this field ....


@PMK - no problem - I'm always here if needed....
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2010, 04:52:33 pm »

most brushless controllers have a cut out for li pol batteries it stops the batteries being damaged but you usually know as you get the odd hesitation so you can bring the boat in. there are plenty if controllers with reverse and have been for some years  there are some cheapish ones that are not bad and give good slow speed as well as reverse, there are some better ones that give good slow speed very high amps (that you will not need), and are great to set up in seconds via a pc link, you can get them that can tell you after a run what amps watts where drawn etc and there are relatively cheap ones of these as well as dearer ones, there is a number of rc sets available that have a two way link there is a new budget one that looks good and that will give battery temperature amps  revs as you tootle around the lake Oh and speed, if you want more info on any of these systems or address let me know, but don't think moderately priced speed controllers are no good I am talking £ 35 /40 and  Giant cod do a rc set with feed back.

Peter
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dodgy geezer

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2010, 09:09:50 am »


... if you want more info on any of these systems or address let me know...


I think that many people here would be interested in any data you have in this field, which seems to be moving quite fast - I would be, for one...
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nick_75au

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2010, 10:02:35 am »

Hi woody,
 I posted a reply over at RC Universe  before I noticed this thread :-)
Nick
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2010, 08:27:47 pm »

Again, thanks for the replies all! We've decided to go ahead with a 2 prop setup. I'm thinking 2 of these:

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/xyh4260-500kv-outrunner-p-404601.html

on 5s LiPos, an 80A esc each, and some kind of mixer that I haven't found yet!

Going to get a 3 channel 40MHz set, and I'm thinking about 50mm props, although that is a guesstimate and in no way calculated! If someone could help with prop choice it would be a huge help :)

Also, does anyone know if these ESCs have a reverse on them??

http://www.giantcod.co.uk/80amp-boat-p-404814.html
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Perkasaman2

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2010, 09:05:40 pm »

A pair of 45X (2 blade plastic ) props would be a starting point. A good idea is to mount/align the shafts as horizontal as possible.
It will help to install longer (12" minimum) shafts to obtain this more horizontal angle and also offset the twin rudder alignment to enable the shafts to be withdrawn without the rudders having to dismounted first. It is wise to leave sufficient clearance between the rudders and the end of the shafts to allow the props to be unscrewed/removed with the rudders in situ. The last item you buy is the shafts.
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 11:12:25 pm »

Ah right, good to know! I think we were just going to go with the 440mm standard sea queen props and put them in the same alignment as the originals, about 3" apart.

I'll be sure to pass on the points though.
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2010, 03:01:50 am »

there is a twin screw set up just posted on the fireboat web site that may interest you it's in the setup section, I converted one of my wooden fire boats to twin screw the method i used may be of some use to you, basically I copied the keel but did not cut in to the skin but notched the bulkhead so the keel could go through as in the original including the transom then put the ply on eather side of the keel to build it up as in the original just between the bulkheads then drilled the shaft's and this way i also had a rudder support as per the original, it was also able to take a lot of power without movement.

peter

http://modelfireboats.com/rc/setups.php#3552
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2010, 03:02:57 am »

there is a twin screw set up just posted on the fireboat web site that may interest you it's in the setup section, I converted one of my wooden fire boats to twin screw the method i used may be of some use to you, basically I copied the keel but did not cut in to the skin but notched the bulkhead so the keel could go through as in the original including the transom then put the ply on eather side of the keel to build it up as in the original just between the bulkheads then drilled the shaft's and this way i also had a rudder support as per the original, it was also able to take a lot of power without movement.
this was built 20 + years ago

peter

http://modelfireboats.com/rc/setups.php#3552

this is how I do it now with a fiberglas fire boat much lighter and it will be geared and brushless Ill find some pictures of how it is now these where during the build.

Peter
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nick_75au

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2010, 09:50:20 am »

Woody,
I think that set-up will be OK for 50 mm props, 80 amp ESC good choice expect around 30+ amps at full throttle,

Peter,
I like your set-up for the fibreglass hulls, very nice.

Nick


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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2010, 10:35:26 pm »

Thanks Peter those pictures help a lot! Especially with the rudder linkage. Nice boats :)

Thanks Nick, would it be advisable to get a few props for trial and error? What are the pros and cons of brass vs. plastic?

I'm getting there, I'll soon have a shopping list!
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2010, 10:51:28 pm »

Plastic props are good to get an idea ALWAYS start small and work up, check temperature off all the electrical components at minute intervals at first till you know its not going to over heat, it seems like hard work but one overheat can cost a lot of money, once you get a good set up buy a nice pair of shinny props from the prop shop (thats what I use) another way is to borrow props to try when you get a few more boats you can pinch them off them.

peter
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woody_294

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2010, 11:22:45 pm »

Thanks Peter :) I'll get some 45mm, see how they go!

I am having problems with mixing :( Does anyone know the difference between a w-tail and a v-tail mixer? Is it just that the w-tail is programmable? What do you twin prop guys use if you mix the signals?
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2010, 12:21:40 am »

you need a boat one try action

Peter
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Perkasaman2

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2010, 02:06:30 am »

Hi woody_294, I dont't bother using any mixers of any sort. I have adapted my Tx to have 'twin stick' both up/down - so twin throttle/esc's which may be used together or  independantly (like tank steering - but props rather than tracks), however one stick also continues to move laterally ( left - right ) for rudder control. I would only use some sort additional control if my model also required a bow thruster. My esc's (both 40 amp and identical )are on velcro fixing to enable them to be transferred for use in other models, seperately or together, as needed.
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: 46" Sea Queen needs running gear help!
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2010, 10:12:47 am »

If it's your first twin screw model for the price of them just get an action unit very simple and cheap and all you need is a two channel radio when you have got  the mixer sorted , then  play twin stick but it can be difficult to get used to the boat. http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/mixers.php  you will find some of the things that twin motor can do like pirouetting on the spot  BUT all mixers have there down side the do drop the revs on the inside motor on turns as in full size practice, ( I wish at full speed the mixer would turn off).

Peter
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