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Author Topic: British S Class  (Read 66547 times)

spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2012, 06:39:01 pm »

I just had a thought, regarding your search for photo's of the conning tower, I am sure that I have some of the late Bernie woods s class model sub. I took them when I visited him at his home, he was a really nice guy,submarine mad!  I will have a look through my pile tomorrow for you.
Cheers
Phill
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2012, 08:29:14 am »

I hope this works! thie was one of my sub's, about 15years ago.

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U-33

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2012, 11:32:07 am »

Now where do I know that boat from? Hmm...
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Rich

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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2012, 02:57:17 pm »

Sorry Tomp, having trouble finding the pic's of Bernies S class sub for you. This picture has been above my work bench for about 20 something years. I'll get the missus to try to find them when she get's home later.
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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2012, 02:58:07 pm »



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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2012, 02:35:43 pm »

I managed to find a picture of Bernies s class tower, I knew I had one some where, it was driving me nut's!!! Not bad this for a 1/50th model, before the day's of photo etching.

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U-33

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2012, 02:53:49 pm »

A wonderful picture Phil, many thanks for hunting it out. I remember the language as Bernie built that, you've never heard a man swear as much as he did making all the tiny fittings...good thing I'm not a religious man!


Regards,


Rich


(did you ever meet Dave Stevens and his son, John...they were close neighbours of Bernies?)
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Rich

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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2012, 03:37:17 pm »

Have you checked your messages?
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2012, 01:51:49 pm »

Hi, Thank you for the pictures. I think I have a picture of this boat in the water I found on the internet sometime ago nicely detailed. I will have a look see if it the same Cheers Tom
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2012, 02:21:29 pm »

Hi there. You don't have to spend a fortune to make your model submerge. In the old day's [before acrylic modules] we just used to pump water in to a sealed ballast tank, which was situated in the centre of the model. you will have to make the ballast tank quite large as the water entering it will compress the air inside,and will not fill completely, and You will have to add baffles in to the tank as well to slow the water from "slopping" around. The tank will have to be big enough to support the weight of every thing above the water line, in you case, about 1.5kg's I guess. I have a really good water pump [12volt] that you can have for free, if it will help. This  system will make your model "sink" but as for running under the surface, you will need some sort of pitch controller on the rear planes, as the water in the tank will move around. Whilst on that subject, I think I am right in saying that, if your model hit's a cold spot of water it will lose some buoyancy, where as if it hit a warm spot it will rise slightly. Trial and error, have a go your self, you will not only learn a lot, but you will get a great deal of satisfaction. There were some articles written in mmi some years ago [about 15?] by a guy called Martyn Hartshorn] if you can get hold of them, they will be a great help to you. I am only trying to help here, I am no expert, I can tell you a little more about the orrigins of you hull if you like? Any way, if I can help, let me know.
Have fun.
Phill
Hi Spooksgone, well I bought some 100mm acrylic tube a few weeks ago and have been thinking about trying to do it myself like you said, love messing about trying to make things work. One thing I was stuck on is what pump? I have read lots of different people opinions and got confused seems there are a few types, I have seen them on ebay but I have bought Chinese stuff before there is a reason its that cheep!! Control wise there seems to be a fair few failsafes and pitch controllers available would have to save for those. Tom
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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2012, 03:03:12 pm »

What sort of Diving times are you looking for? Unlike modern nukes, WWII boats could crash dive very quickly if required. If you want to ape that, then it will dictate your diving system.

I think the ballast volume for these boats is around the 1.5 litre mark, Bob Dimmack at OTW would be able to confirm or deny that, or you can find it out via empirical methods.

What sort of pumped ballast system are you looking at- a sealed tank pressurized system, a bag, or a vented tank?

Pump wise, you can use centrifugal or positive displacement pumps. Peristaltics will be very slow unless you use either a very large pump, or run lots in parallel- impractical. Centrifugal types move a lot of water very quickly, but are unidrectional. They're used in Sheerline modules, so that's a fairly good pedigree. Geared pumps are popular, although they don't match centrifugal types for speed, they can run both ways and reach high pressure easily. For small to medium size models, the little orange/red geared pumps are widely used. Unfortunately production has shifted from Europe to China, and quality is now a little variable- they seem to have tinkered with the plastic used for construction, but they're available cheaply on ebay for about a seven quid. I would say you'd need to fit two in parallel unless you want to wait over a minute for your boat to dive.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BN-Universal-12V-Lucas-Type-Windscreen-Washer-Pump-/290716827194?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43b012be3a

Kavan produce a geared pump, it has more capacity than the orange pumps, and uses brass instead of plastic gears. You can also purchase new seals for this pump, so it should last a very long time in a model. It is well regarded as a rugged bit of kit, and pumps about 1.8 litres a minute at 12 volts, so a dive time of about 45 seconds, or fit two in parallel if that is too slow. They tend to cost about £20-30 depending on where you buy them.

http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0190E.html

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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2012, 08:30:02 am »

I managed to find a picture of Bernies s class tower, I knew I had one some where, it was driving me nut's!!! Not bad this for a 1/50th model, before the day's of photo etching.


Not sure if this is the same boat looks it though nice boat

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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2012, 01:09:13 pm »

What sort of Diving times are you looking for? Unlike modern nukes, WWII boats could crash dive very quickly if required. If you want to ape that, then it will dictate your diving system.

I think the ballast volume for these boats is around the 1.5 litre mark, Bob Dimmack at OTW would be able to confirm or deny that, or you can find it out via empirical methods.

What sort of pumped ballast system are you looking at- a sealed tank pressurized system, a bag, or a vented tank?

Pump wise, you can use centrifugal or positive displacement pumps. Peristaltics will be very slow unless you use either a very large pump, or run lots in parallel- impractical. Centrifugal types move a lot of water very quickly, but are unidrectional. They're used in Sheerline modules, so that's a fairly good pedigree. Geared pumps are popular, although they don't match centrifugal types for speed, they can run both ways and reach high pressure easily. For small to medium size models, the little orange/red geared pumps are widely used. Unfortunately production has shifted from Europe to China, and quality is now a little variable- they seem to have tinkered with the plastic used for construction, but they're available cheaply on ebay for about a seven quid. I would say you'd need to fit two in parallel unless you want to wait over a minute for your boat to dive.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BN-Universal-12V-Lucas-Type-Windscreen-Washer-Pump-/290716827194?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43b012be3a

Kavan produce a geared pump, it has more capacity than the orange pumps, and uses brass instead of plastic gears. You can also purchase new seals for this pump, so it should last a very long time in a model. It is well regarded as a rugged bit of kit, and pumps about 1.8 litres a minute at 12 volts, so a dive time of about 45 seconds, or fit two in parallel if that is too slow. They tend to cost about £20-30 depending on where you buy them.

http://www.kavanrc.com/IndexText/0190E.html



45 seconds would be ok but like the idea of two pumps. At work I do a lot of electrical work in computer suites for banks and government so it’s all dual supplies etc for resilience so if something fails there is a back up, so I would adopt the same idea here its cost a fair bit so far so do not want to lose it in the local lake. I know its extra weight, space and drain on the battery but could use it as a backup not a running system. I would go for the sealed tank as it’s nice and simple and like you said pumps are quite cheap. Will look into end caps for the tube I’m guessing Marks model bits would be a good place to start. Had a chance to do some more work recently so detailing the conning tower. I have made all the towers removable along with the binnacle make it easier for painting. Not happy with the hand rail its far too large so have some smaller ones to fit from modelling timbers.



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U-33

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2012, 02:01:59 pm »

Not sure if this is the same boat looks it though nice boat



Yep, that's Bernie's Stoic...I can't remember if that was taken at Plumpton or Sandown Show.
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Rich

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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2012, 03:00:01 pm »

Hi guy's. I reckon that must have been Plumton, I can't ever remember car's by the boating pool at Sandown. Tomp, you seem to be getting on well with the s class, keep at it, and you will have a hell of a model when it is finished. And all so, you seem to have started a thread which has brought back a few good memories for some of us. I don't want to confuse thing's to much, but this is one of the water pumps that I have used, and they are very good. As I said before, if you want this pump to start experimenting, pm me your address details and I will send it too you free of charge. can't get much cheaper than that eh! They can be brought from caravan accessory places. Got to go now, working on, working depth charges for my model destroyer, got to keep the u boat's out of the model boating lake!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Phil

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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2012, 04:04:03 pm »

That looks like the Shurflo nautilus pump that OTW use in their dive modules.
 
They pump either way, and the flow rate is great, but I don't think they work at the higher pressures needed for a selaed tank-

http://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/shurflo/transfer-pumps-winterizing-pumps-nautilus-10-gpm/17320-68904-_2.html.

If you look at OTW modules, the tank vents into the fore and aft dry spaces (probes are fitted into the tank with electronics to shut the pump off so you don't flood the module), so the pressure never reaches more than a few psi. With a sealed tank you need to be able to pump up beyond 50psi to get 70% of the tank full, a geared pump will make that pressure easily, but looking at the chart this pump will stall beyond 15 psi.

You could have the pump connected to a ballast bag housed inside the wtc. By using this method, you bypass the need for probes and electronics to control water level, and at the same time becuase the air is being compressed inside the whole module instead of just the tank, you keep the pressure down, so the pump can do it's job easily.

Suitable bags would be the types you can find on ebay used for urine (yes I know!!). There are models available with 2L capacity, which is more than you require, but the bag can be located inside a smaller plastic cylinder with a couple of holes drilled in. This cylinder constricts the volume to what you require, and holds the ballast in  the correct position.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Urine-Bag-2000ml-Anti-reflux-PRIVATE-LISTING?item=270713571849&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC.NPJS%26itu%3DI%252BUA%26otn%3D12%26pmod%3D270727235138%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D8783153804173554039

You will need a shut off valve to prevent water pushing back through the pump. A servo pinch valve might be a bit ambitious- these pumps have large bore tubing. You can purchase solenoid control valves designed for water (don't use ones for gass, they tend to corrode).

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-DC-1-2-Electronic-Solenoid-Valve-Water-Air-/300480064600?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item45f601ec58

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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2012, 05:12:17 pm »

Hi there subculture. That is right, it is all coming back to me now. With you expertise on this subject, do you think that you could come up with a system, that people could use in there sub's. The price of ready made modules and dive systems, is what is putting me of from going back to model submarines. You could take orders, get the part's needed, write, draw, the instructions, and the customer could assemble it all on there work bench. I am no expert at all on electronics, I just enjoy the building and end result. What do you think?
All the best.
Cheers.
Phil
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2012, 09:40:53 am »

Ah I think I’m starting to understand a bit more. I thought the OTW module was a sealed tube but in fact it displaces the air into the other sections hence not such a high pressure pump is needed. I'm assuming that the probes are level sensors that stop the pump and close a solenoid valve. Maybe a silly question but hopefully you will put me right, would a car or motorbike fuel pump be up to it? They should be able to cope with the higher pressure not sure if they will work in reverse though or what the flow rate would be like. I can understand why the pre built WTC are expensive there is a lot of design work and technology that go into them, just I can't afford the £800 plus for one the wife wants a holiday.
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2012, 09:58:00 am »

Hi guy's. I reckon that must have been Plumton, I can't ever remember car's by the boating pool at Sandown. Tomp, you seem to be getting on well with the s class, keep at it, and you will have a hell of a model when it is finished. And all so, you seem to have started a thread which has brought back a few good memories for some of us. I don't want to confuse thing's to much, but this is one of the water pumps that I have used, and they are very good. As I said before, if you want this pump to start experimenting, pm me your address details and I will send it too you free of charge. can't get much cheaper than that eh! They can be brought from caravan accessory places. Got to go now, working on, working depth charges for my model destroyer, got to keep the u boat's out of the model boating lake!!!!!!!!
Cheers
Phil


Hi Phil, Well finally I'm getting a bit more time to work on it have to say they are very impressive Subs from OTW I want a type 7 when I finish this. I bet that’s fun live depth charges, my dad used to be a member of Gloucestershire model boat club and another member I think his name was Stan Robinson did the same just used a little too much one time blew his destroyer up, thankfully wasn't too much damage great model builder also I think he was into subs can't remember to well it was a long time ago. Messed about making running torpedoes for little while using reed switches and scalextric motors and AA batteries, need to concentrate on the sub first then will play with that. I will PM you my address really appreciate the help. Cheers Tom
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U-33

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2012, 10:28:31 am »

Good grief, there's a name from the past...Stan Robinson. I new him well, from way back...he had a lovely Darnell S class, then bought an Engel Gato from John Robinson...it was absolutely chockablock with electronics.


Rich
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Rich

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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2012, 01:16:18 pm »

Found a fuel pump with these details might be a bit power hungry though but can work around that also read that fuel pump will be fine to reverse could be wrong though
 SPEC:

Inlet - 12mm push on

Outlet - 8mm push on

Flow rate - approx. 135ltr/hr @ 3bar

Max pressure  - 8.5bar

Am I right in thinking if it will do 135ltr in an hour it will do 2.25ltr in a minute so less than a minute dive time if I have a 2ltr sealed tank?

So if that was controlled via 2 DPST relays with 5v DC coil I could switch it forwards and backwards from 2 switched outputs off the receiver, and if I double up off the live outputs from the relay to a 12v solenoid valve I can open and close that also. To stop the pump when the tank is full all I need is float switch to break the supply from the fill relay to the pump and Bobs your uncle.

That was it I remember Stans sub being brown can't remember what it was though. Yeah he was very good with the electronics side of things.

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Subculture

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2012, 03:08:25 pm »

I'm assuming that the probes are level sensors that stop the pump and close a solenoid valve.

Maybe a silly question but hopefully you will put me right, would a car or motorbike fuel pump be up to it?

There are three probes, two at the top, one at the bottom, the controller stops the pump when empty or full and actuates the valve. The Shurflo nautilus pumps don't like being run dry. With a sealed tank or a bag, you don't need all these electronics, which simplifies things, and reduces cost. Another advantage is that you're not compressing humid air into the dry spaces. A sealed tank will need to be bigger than the equivalent on an OTW boat, as the latter can use about 90% of the volume of the tank, whereas the former generally about 70%, a bag can typically pump to the capacity allowed it by a constraining jacket.

Fuel pumps aren't any good really. They make good pressure, but they're designed to pump fuel, not water, so the internals tend to corrode if you use them in submarines.

If you have the time, tools and talent, building a dive module needn't be an expensive process. The cost of components for a water pump system is typically under £30, the main expense being the pump itself. The rest of the module is just sheet material and the tubing. You can save a bundle by buying offcuts, or using salvaged materials.

PVC tubing is much cheaper than acrylic- often free if you keep an eye on builders skips- and much tougher, but is typically filled, so opaque. Most people like the concept of a transparent cylinder so they can see all the stuff working, which means acrylic, polycarbonate or unfilled PVC. In the UK the latter two are expensive and more difficult to source, which is why acrylic is more widely used.

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spooksgone

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2012, 03:44:46 pm »

Hi there guy's. Stan Robinson, I remember the name really well. He has made some fantastic models, he all way's used to be in the model boat mag's, years ahead of his time. I all so heard, the he "watted up" his tx so much, that when he switched on, every body's tv in a 3 mile radius went out!!! I'm sure that he used to sail his boats, and ships at the reservoir at Bournville. oh, and all so that he used connect his tx up to a tv areail  by the lake side! Fantastic bloke, a real inspiration to me at the time.
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TomP

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2012, 03:44:45 pm »

Got myself a fuel pump for a Mercedes C240 for £20 tried it yesterday to pump out water from a bucket good flow rate just need to work out why it won't pump backwards. I think it might be because it primes going forwards but working in reverse doesn't will keep playing
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Andy_k

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Re: British S Class
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2012, 05:32:46 pm »

Got myself a fuel pump for a Mercedes C240 for £20 tried it yesterday to pump out water from a bucket good flow rate just need to work out why it won't pump backwards. I think it might be because it primes going forwards but working in reverse doesn't will keep playing
Fuel pumps for injected engines are generally roller type where the rollers turn in a chamber and compress as they turn to force the fluid out and it is due to the shape of the chamber only work in 1 direction and usually of metal construction and without fuel to lubricate the parts as Andy says you will find they will corrode very quickly
 
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Right which one will I do next?;)
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