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Author Topic: simple yet seemingly impossible ??  (Read 2876 times)

nige2307

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simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« on: November 26, 2010, 10:26:19 PM »




Is this impossible to answer,too stupid to answer, or ???
if so then enlighten me.

  {:-{ I am currently attempting to rebuild a 1/36 scale model steam tug, (not based on any particular tug).
having never seen a tug  is certainly a hindrance ,to say the least.
my question..  Is there a particular type/style associated with steam tugs? can i use bollard/bar ones.
what size( min/max) would i need to buy? 
steam anchor winch .. again which size? approx height/length/width .
 funnel.. I realize that funnels range in size but any help with height and dia  would be appreciated.
and last question,another vague one, what other boats ,if any, used same hull as a coastal tug?
oh, and recommendations for best place to order from based on delivery time   ?
 ANY help with this would be appreciated , i aint looking for definitive answers just guidelines.

 show a neewbie the helpfull  mayhem/tuggie nature    and help the imbecile out...  please!
 

  cheers ...nige
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brianB6

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 10:42:59 PM »

Hi Nige
See the masterclass Cervia build by bluebird.
She is a Thames Steam tug but should give you the details you need.
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Perkasaman2

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 07:52:44 AM »

Hi nige, A door height of 6 foot (or 2 yards) modelled at scale 1:35 would be a fraction less than 2 inches high.
The common model boat scales given below are popular and were chosen before metric measurement was adopted. They allow 'fairly' easy conversion calculations based on imperial feet/inches which were found to be convenient.
(I still think sizes in imperial and getting my head around this metric business in diy stores is a headache  %) )

1:12 ......................  1" to the foot................................................ door is 6" high

1:16........................ 3/4" to the foot (also 1/16"  to the 1")..............door is 4.5" high

1:24.......................  1/2" to the foot..............................................door is 3" high

1:32........................ 3/8 to the foot...............................................door is 2.25" high

1:48........................ 1/4" to the foot..............................................door is 1.5" high
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nige2307

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 01:01:36 PM »

perkasaman (interesting tag?)   going by what you stated regarding scale ,  i think i am near enough 1/36 scale?
 but its not the scale thats confusing me ,more the associated size of fittings appropriate for the scale.  if that makes sense.
have no idea what size a real bollard, for example, would be ,and cant seem to find answer on net!


bryanb6   have checked the cervia build and it is an excellent reference piece .
but sadly not in the size/scale area. but thanks for pointing the build out.
 

thank you both nige
 
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 08:16:30 PM »

The easy way to solve this, would be that you have decided that the boat you have is 1/36 scale.
So any 1/36 scale parts will be correctly sized. 1/32nd scale parts would be a bit large, or "heavy duty" in
size to your chosen scale.

The reason you are having difficulty getting an answer would be the following.

The parts in question vary with each boat, and each manufacturer.
With out visiting an actual boat most of us do not know the actual dimensions.
Modelers rely on part manufacturers to provide the properly scaled parts.

To make one on your own might incorprate the following.

A decision that the boat being modeled is 1/36 scale.

A referance photo of a similar tug boat showing the winch or bollard.
The reference photo must now be "scaled" the photo must be examined and an
item in the photo must be identified and be of a known dimension.
The most obvious item being a door, or a person standing in the photo.

At this point many assumptions are then made, The door is 6'-8" tall, or the man is 6'-0" tall.
A measurement  would then be taken of the door, and what ever that measure is, it must be broken down in scale.

Say the door measures 1.625" tall in the photograph. We assume a 6"-8" door... 80"....
So, 1.625" 80" = 0.020... Therefore 0.020" = 1" in the photograph, or  0.24" = 1'-0"

This establishes a rough scale for the photograph.
One can now measure objects in the photograph and roughly measure and calculate the size of objects in the photo.

If a bollard can be seen in the background of this image, it could then be possible to  compare the bollard to the
near by railing, or bullwarks. Lets say the bollard is half the height of the railing.

Since we can see the  photograph that the railing is a consistent height from the door all the way
back to the bollard, we can then make a reasonable correction for perspective and distance in the photo.
The railing can be measured at a point close to the door we measured earlier.  
If it measures 7/8" tall  we can calculate that .875" 0.020" = 43.75 therefore we establish that the
railing in the photo is approximately 43.75" in height, the bollard is half that height, so the bollard is 21.875" tall.

If we accept that the bollard is 21.875" tall, then at 1/36 scale, the scale of your model, we can then calculate that
the model bollard should be 21.875" 36" = 0.607... Therefore the bollard at 1/36 scale is 0.607" tall.

Now, if in this same picture, you can see or measure that the width of this bollard is half it's height, then it can be
calculated that 0.607 2 = 0.3035, the diameter of the bollard should be built at 0.3035" in diameter.

I hope this helps you understand the value of referance photos, and gives you some idea of how to use them
to calulate the sizes of objects, and then scale them to your model. I also hope this helps you undersand why
a simple question may not be an easy answer.

 :-)

Umi
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wibplus

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 09:35:27 PM »

The easy way to solve this, would be that you have decided that the boat you have is 1/36 scale.
So any 1/36 scale parts will be correctly sized. 1/32nd scale parts would be a bit large, or "heavy duty" in
size to your chosen scale.

The reason you are having difficulty getting an answer would be the following.

The parts in question vary with each boat, and each manufacturer.
With out visiting an actual boat most of us do not know the actual dimensions.
Modelers rely on part manufacturers to provide the properly scaled parts.

To make one on your own might incorprate the following.

A decision that the boat being modeled is 1/36 scale.

A referance photo of a similar tug boat showing the winch or bollard.
The reference photo must now be "scaled" the photo must be examined and an
item in the photo must be identified and be of a known dimension.
The most obvious item being a door, or a person standing in the photo.

At this point many assumptions are then made, The door is 6'-8" tall, or the man is 6'-0" tall.
A measurement  would then be taken of the door, and what ever that measure is, it must be broken down in scale.

Say the door measures 1.625" tall in the photograph. We assume a 6"-8" door... 80"....
So, 1.625" 80" = 0.020... Therefore 0.020" = 1" in the photograph, or  0.24" = 1'-0"

This establishes a rough scale for the photograph.
One can now measure objects in the photograph and roughly measure and calculate the size of objects in the photo.

If a bollard can be seen in the background of this image, it could then be possible to  compare the bollard to the
near by railing, or bullwarks. Lets say the bollard is half the height of the railing.

Since we can see the  photograph that the railing is a consistent height from the door all the way
back to the bollard, we can then make a reasonable correction for perspective and distance in the photo.
The railing can be measured at a point close to the door we measured earlier.  
If it measures 7/8" tall  we can calculate that .875" 0.020" = 43.75 therefore we establish that the
railing in the photo is approximately 43.75" in height, the bollard is half that height, so the bollard is 21.875" tall.

If we accept that the bollard is 21.875" tall, then at 1/36 scale, the scale of your model, we can then calculate that
the model bollard should be 21.875" 36" = 0.607... Therefore the bollard at 1/36 scale is 0.607" tall.

Now, if in this same picture, you can see or measure that the width of this bollard is half it's height, then it can be
calculated that 0.607 2 = 0.3035, the diameter of the bollard should be built at 0.3035" in diameter.

I hope this helps you understand the value of referance photos, and gives you some idea of how to use them
to calulate the sizes of objects, and then scale them to your model. I also hope this helps you undersand why
a simple question may not be an easy answer.

 :-)

Umi

 :o :o Pheewwww ! Absolutely brilliant description.  :-)) :-))   %%
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Shipmate60

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 09:49:56 PM »

If it is not based on any particular tug why not scale it to 1/32 where there are a lot of fittings and information available?

Bob
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kiwi

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2010, 09:52:17 PM »

Hi Umi,
A beautifully clear and concise description.
I have been raking my feeble brain to try and describe to nige how to do it. I'm a professional design draughtsman and I do it all the time, but get tied up in words when trying to get the method onto paper.
Well done, and hopefully solves his problem
Thanks from all of us
cheers
kiwi
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nige2307

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2010, 10:36:39 PM »

yup! :-))  thats a very in depth explanation of  extrapolation and logical applied math.
 and as such i applaud and merit your reply,and am also grateful for your taking the time .
BUT..  this been my first build i was hoping to keep it fairly straight forward, then if i enjoy the experience, progress.
 maximum satisfaction would require maximum effort, without a doubt.
 BUT...after frying my brain  I would be at bottom of the garden dancing with the slugs in the pale moonlight , feasting on moonbeams and squirrel  (cant say or insinuate "s##t") droppings !
 babbling incoherent verse etc,etc   
  but thanks...one step closer to throwing in the towel and admitting failure.!!!
   


the clue was in the "simple" part of my post/subject !
   simple is, as simple does !
 

seriously thank you and adios!
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nige2307

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2010, 10:51:50 PM »

 would change scale but would still have same problem. scale is not the problem .
its my ignorance regarding tugs that is.
and when the parts i require only state sizes !
 i have posted pictures in another post hoping for enlightenment as to what type of tug it is.
 had i realized there is no safe averages or common sizes available .......
 draughtsman.. impressed!  
more of tiddlywink man myself.
not found that too beneficial in relation to tug build though...
  
was happy with lego, and it floated !

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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 11:19:06 PM »

Well i built my modern desiel voith schneider fire boat at 1/36 scale, and made the bollards 1/4 "....

 ok2
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nige2307

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 11:29:42 PM »

thank you! 
   :-))

thank you! 
thank you! 
 

not as impressive but simple.

your good!

cheers nige
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Perkasaman2

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Re: simple yet seemingly impossible ??
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 03:01:37 PM »

Have a look at the excellent photos included with this 'Joffre' tug build by our Romanian Mayhemmer marinaru ro.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27506.msg270381;topicseen#msg270381

Although this is a 1:48 scale model many photos of the model and fittings clearly show a Tamiya Cutting board with it's centimetre (metric) grid markings.  :-))   A lot of accurate dimensions (metric) can be fairly easily worked out which can be easily 'adjusted' to any alternative scale.
Scale 1:36 is 33% larger than 1:48...................... therefore multiply all of the 1:48 measurements obtained, by a 'scale factor' of 1.333.

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