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Author Topic: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?  (Read 8877 times)

carlmt

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Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« on: January 06, 2011, 10:18:34 PM »

Good evening all,

Name is Carl and new to the forum....although I have know about it for some time, this is the first chance I have had to sign up and take part!!!! Work commitments keep getting in the way..

ANYHOW - 1st question....

What is the general concensus on a 'preferred scale for an r/c model ship such as a cross-channel ferry?

Generally tugs are in the range 1:32 / 1:48 and warships 1:72 / 1:96 / 1:144 & 1:192 (dependent on prototype size).

I notice the Europeans (Germans mainly) go for 1:100 (and 1:200 for large battleships) - but they are generally considered 'metric' scales....

I was thinking that 1:96 would be sensible and give reasonably good stability with a fair draught.

What do the collective think?  What, if you were buying such a kit, would you prefer scale wise?

Look forward to hearing from you ,
Carl

Colin Bishop

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 10:36:32 PM »

I think you need to decide upon the biggest overall size you are willing to consider and determine the scale from there.

The problem with modern passenger ships, including ferries, is that they are of relatively low draught compared with their height above water. This causes problems when you scale them down as the more you do so the more stability can suffer. Model superstructures tend to be disproportionately heavy compared with the real thing so you have to make the construction very light indeed. The other problem is that. being high in the water, they are more affected by wind than for example tugs. Models of this type of ship can be successful but usually the bigger the better.

Colin
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cos918

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 10:39:55 PM »

All the ferry kits are 1:100. 1:96 or 1:100 there is nothing in it. If it is an open back ferry you might want to think of 1:87 as there read made truck in this scale.
at 1:100 the 1981 towsend Sprit class 130m comes in at 1.3m. Most morden big  ferries are around the 200m mark making them 2m long. You have to weigh up ease of building eg the room you have ease of moving it and avaibailty of fittings. This will answer your question. My ferry MV celestine is 1:100.The ferries i have lined up to build will all be 1:100 scale.
Which boat are you thinking of building?

John
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2011, 10:52:00 PM »

Thankyou Colin, thankyou John............

I am currently designing 4 ferries..............all of which I am hoping to bring to the kit market in a new venture over the next two years.  I will keep the identity of the last 3 a little secret for now, but I can reveal that the first down the slipway will be the Townsend Thoresen FREE ENTERPRISE V.

This can then either be FEIV, V or VI out of the box or, with only a very small mod or two, FEVII.

Design is progressing well and the prototype should be ready later this summer for sea trials. Target price for the kit will be the sub 500 mark - and that will be for a full kit sans motors and r/c gear.

Hence my question re scales - I was thinking 1:96 as this is a popular scale here in the UK. I certainly wouldnt want to go less than 1:100 as the computer stability models dont favour a smaller size.

Carl

HansP

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2011, 09:57:58 AM »

@carlmt

Well done for taking on not just one, but several ferries. This is a neglected corner of the market and it would be great to have models of ferries that many people will know well.

As for the scale - if your plans include routes slightly to the North of Dover - Calais (hint, hint!) the ex-NSF ferries Norsea / Norsun (for example) are 173m in length, thus a 1:100 scale model ends up at around 1.8m in length and 25cm wide.

I would go for either 1:100 (metric, easier conversion of dimensions) or one of 1:96 (popular for boat models) or 1:87 (continental H0 gauge) / 1:72 (British 00 Gauge). This is because either of these two would allow you to use commercially available road vehicles and people / figures in these scales. A big car ferry at 1:87 would be a magnificent model to own - and if you go for 1:87, you could even equip the car decks with guide wires for Faller's car system to facilitate automated loading / unloading.

If you produce a North Sea Ferries kit, of either Norwave/Norwind, Norstar/Norland or Norsun/Norsea, in any of the above scales, I'd be your first customer! :-)

Best of Luck!  

Peter.
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2011, 11:23:16 AM »

Nice looking ferries the NSF fleet - especially in their original colours....

If I could lay my hands on some GA's / lines drawings then I think it could be a go-er.  Would need to work out a working stabiliser system methinks!!!

Carl

cos918

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2011, 02:00:56 PM »

Hi Carl
Top marks on your first choise . A realy nice ship great lines and of course the best  liver Townsend Thoresen. It is nice to hear that some one is looking to make a good ferry kit. Way to little kits avaible for this sector . The only other one are deans but they are freight ferrys and then thoes kit in germany that go for silly money.
As for scale. Free Enterprise V as far as I can recall she dosent have an open car deck at the rear. So for her the avaibality of trucks makes no diffrence. If I was you I would stick to 1 scale for your range so if futher ferrys are open back then 1:87 has big advantages. Deans marine 3 ferries are 1:100 ,other mercheant ships in there range are 1:96 and other scales. Apart from the few rivet counters most people will put 1:00 and 1:96 as the same on a 200m ferry you are look at 8 cms in length , nothing.
Take the Pride of Dover. A mid to large ferry by morden standerds at 170m long all but.
1:87  = 1.95 m long
1:96  = 1.77 m long
1:100 = 1.70 m long
My model of Deans marine ferry MV Celestine is 1.62m long and only just fits in to my car ( ford mondao) with a few cms to spare.
Free Enterprise V 117.5 m long will be easy to move in any of the above 3 scales  at the biges it will be1.35m long .
I think you choise of scale will depend on what you have in the pipe line ie the other 3 ferrys you are look at.

John
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 02:47:10 PM »

Afternoon all,
Design of the FEV is progressing well - should have our first prototype hull produced in the spring.

News today from Dover for ferry fans is the delivery of P&O's new flagship ferry : Spirit of Britain. She arrived this morning from the builders in Finland.  She is the largest ferry t odate to operate on the short sea crossing to Calais and she replaces the Pride of Dover which is currently laid up in Tilbury.

The following photo of her arrival is courtesy of Paul Cloke of Dover Ferry Photos (www.doverferryphotos.co.uk) - copyrighted.

Now how about a 1:96 model of her!!!! 2218mm long x 327mm wide?  HHmmmm ok2

tigertiger

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2011, 02:53:20 PM »

At 2.2m, is your car big enough  ok2 ?

How much ballast will she need? Is your back strong enough  :o ?

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HansP

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 08:04:19 PM »

While the new Spirit of Britian / Spirit of France are certainly imposing ships, they follow the current trend for big slab-sided ferries with minimal deck space - great for cargo capacity, but they're just not attractive ships to me. The proportions seem out of balance - big, wide bridge screen and tiny bow, high sides and stocky funnels.

NSF's 1974 vintage ferries - hint, hint - always appealed to me, here's a model of Norland, probably in the ABP building in Hull:





Now that's a fery..... :)

Best wishes,

HansP.
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Number 6

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 09:12:57 PM »

I don't understand why there are very few ferries or liner kits, or even hulls available? There is definitely a big gap in the market for somebody to start to fill, regards, Dave.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 09:25:07 PM »

This has been discussed before. The problem with models of liners and ferries is one of stability. There are tall upperworks and relatively low draught which makes it difficult to build models which will not suffer from instability or are vulnerable the to the wind pushing them over which amounts to the same thing. Something like a tug or workboat is much more stable which is why the kit manufacturers favour that type ofr model.

Colin
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HansP

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 07:54:29 AM »

Colin,

Stability is certainly an issue. However, would it not be possible to develop a detachable ballasted keel, which could be screwed to the bottom of the hull for use in water but detached while the model is on display? Surely this would help solve the stability problem, and would perhaps encourage more manufacturers to develop models of what are well known and interesting prototypes.

Maybe this issue is inevitable for a small (1:100) scale ferry - looking at the photos of the Norland above, everything from the top of the red painted area sits above water and generates windage, against a very shallow draught of 6m on the real thing, so just 60mm at 1:100. 

However, this particular ferry has topsides that are, in cross-section, a good deal less slab-like than later ships and its funnel is also smaller. Maybe this helps?

Regards,

HansP.
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tigertiger

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 09:27:25 AM »

I agree windage is a major issue.

Philosophically I can see a problem with a drop keel on a modern ship model, even though it may provide a practical solution. This would also be a barrier to a manufacturer.


However, there is a similar issue with sailing boats. If the prototype did not sail well then, with the problems of scale, a model will also not sail well. As a result there are no plans or kits for working models of some very famous ships and/or types of ship. Examples, Viking long boats, Xebecs, Roman galleys,and tea clippers; Santa Maria, Nina and Pinta.
There are also those with rigs that do not lend themselves to RC, like sailing dhows, and boats with lug or lateen sails.

There are static model kits/plans, and models by fanatic modelers, but not working model kits, sadly.
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 09:29:36 AM »

The stability issue is one area that I am looking at obviously.....

One option is to use a submarine 'leveller', but placed across the hull as opposed to fore and aft, connected to moveable stabilisers - to act in the same way as the full sized vessels.

My main concern is 'windage' and the effect of being pushed sideways across the pond.  I have a large SD14 cargo vessel that has only 60-70mm of draught and stability is not a problem.

So long as some weight is placed as low as possible, I dont think the boat will turn turtle in a breeze, but it may drift sideways due to a lack of resistance through the water.

For this reason, I have designed the FEV hull a little deeper than would be scale..........but not so much as it would be noticeable.

I was conducting experiments at the weekend with a large, flat bottomed, plastic box on the test tank. width was 300mm, height 400mm aand depth in water 15mm. Empty, the stability was total - no problems at all.  PLace a plank on top, with a largish weight on top of that and the stability became 'interesting', but i couldnt turn it over.  Added some weight in the bottom of the box, and the stability returned (40mm below the waterline).  As an experiment, I added water in the bottom of the box - not a good idea. The box became very unstable and developed an alarming list!!!!

The experiments will continue..........................i will overcome!!!!!!
Carl

carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2011, 05:16:15 PM »

Good evening all,

Well, development of FEV is progressing well............. just spending time ensuring that the detail is right on the superstructure parts, and that it all goes together as I expect.  :-))

Spent today at Southampton Central Library researching various prototypes through the back issues of 'The Motor Ship' - very enlightening!!!!

HansP - I have now obtained GA drawings for the NSF Norland from 1974 - a 'not-impossible' prototype subject!!!! Nice lines.... If you can bear with me, I think this one could be on the cards!! 8)

Carl

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 09:06:14 AM »

Carl,

Now that is good news! I really thought you might have problems obtaining the GA drawings, I had been trying for months with no success. I noticed that GA drawings for Norwave / Norwind were published in Ferry Publications recently released "History of the Ferry"; but only ever seen the coloured cut-away sketch of Norland / Norstar. Well done! And no, I don't mind waiting either.

I'm sure you won't want suggestions for kit versions at this stage, but I thought it might help to consider the possible "versions" at this early stage of development.

Fundamentally the ship exists in two versions - as built, and as lengthened by 20.25m in 1987 at Seebeckwerft in Bremen. The only external differences between the two are:

1. Stretched centre section
2. Reduction in number of lifeboats to reflect the ships reduced passenger capacity (traded-off for freight lane metres during the conversion)

You might want to consider the following versions:

1. Norland / Norstar as built for Hull - Rotterdam   
2. Norland as adapted for Falklands service (cut-back stern decking, addition of two Helidecks and various gun points)
3. Norland / Norstar stretched for NSF Hull - Zeebrugge
4. SNAV Campania / SNAV Sicilia (externally identical to 3. above, just different livery).

Please do let us know how things are developing, although I'll try not to pester for details! If this kit is ready this year, next year, 2013, doesn't matter - just so long as one day you get round to it! I've always thought of these NSF ships as iconic ferries and they were pioneers in their day.

Many thanks for your efforts in advance

HansP.



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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2011, 01:43:48 PM »

Peter,
The drawings I have are as she was originally built, however to produced the stretched version wouldnt be too much of a headache as the change was in the centre section and seems to be a simple exercise in lengthening.

Which would people prefer?  Obviously a model based on the original prototype would be more managable but would the later NSF livery be more appealing? I have photographs of both, but it would seem that the 'blue & white' scheme was only applied after the modifications.....

Carl

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2011, 03:47:13 PM »

There is a four page feature on Norland and Norstar with lots of colour photos in the latest issue of Ships Monthly.

Colin
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2011, 03:49:44 PM »

Thanks for the heads up on that Colin.........that could be most useful  :-))
C

HansP

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2011, 09:07:22 PM »

Carl,

There were three colour schemes used on the Norland - original black/white/orange from 1974, then the same colours but with "North Sea Ferries" added to the hull (late seventies), and then after lengthening the new NSF colours were adopted for the re-introduction on the Hull - Zeebrugge run in 1987.

Regards,

HansP. 
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wartsilaone

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2011, 07:39:09 PM »

This is my model of Norsea. I did not have any plans and had to draw them myself. I plan to build a 1:125 scale Norland in Falklands condition but with detachable helipads. I can get by without plans but it would make things a lot easier. The more info the better. As for stability this ship has no problems even without ballast but windage may be a factor when deciding when to sail.



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wartsilaone

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2011, 11:31:39 PM »

There is another external difference which needs to be noted. When the ships were lenghtend, the snug bar was removed in favour of more cabins so you will see that the big windows at the rear of B deck dissapear.
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carlmt

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2011, 11:46:19 PM »

Thanks for the 'nod' wartsilaone - observations such as these are invaluable!!!! :-))
Carl

wartsilaone

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Re: Preferred scale for r/c cross channel ferry?
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 12:40:44 AM »

Check out Ebay for north sea ferries books. They are probably the most comprehensive with all the info you will need. Did you like the picture by the way?
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