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Author Topic: HMS Victory rotting away!  (Read 9431 times)

Colin Bishop

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HMS Victory rotting away!
« on: January 09, 2011, 09:46:09 am »

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barryfoote

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2011, 10:08:52 am »

This is not good. I know it costs a lot of money to preserve the heritage of our Country, but surely this most incredible of ships, must be preserved at all costs. When you think of the money that gets wasted, surely a drop in the Ocean can be found to keep the old girl going.. >>:-( >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o >:-o
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a3nige

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2011, 10:10:29 am »

'HMS Victory is riddled with rot and being pulled apart by its own weight.'
Just like the rest of the country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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gondolier88

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2011, 11:16:00 am »

I forward a petition that the bankers bonuses that are crippling the country are taken down on a sliding scale relative to their amount by a 'heritage tax', as the HLF is getting it's funds reduced as well as National Historic Ships having its grant funding reduced by 15% over the next few years, it's about time we got something back from those 'city bankers'!

Greg
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2011, 12:07:01 pm »

I forward a petition that the bankers bonuses that are crippling the country are taken down on a sliding scale relative to their amount by a 'heritage tax', as the HLF is getting it's funds reduced as well as National Historic Ships having its grant funding reduced by 15% over the next few years, it's about time we got something back from those 'city bankers'!

Greg

Did you know the collective term for City Bankers is a "Wunch"   :}
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tigertiger

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2011, 12:30:03 pm »

Sad about HMS Victory.

You would think after the recent axing of the fleet, and planned future ships, that there would be some slack in the budget. And as someone else said, 1.5 million quid (not enough) is a drop in the defense spending bucket.
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john s 2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2011, 04:36:09 pm »

Looks to me as if its already being sold off in small bits.There are quite a number of lots on E-Bay selling copper  nails and pieces of
wood purporting to have come from restoration work. John.
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Netleyned

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2011, 05:05:56 pm »

Looks to me as if its already being sold off in small bits.There are quite a number of lots on E-Bay selling copper  nails and pieces of
wood purporting to have come from restoration work. John.

If the stuff was genuine and sold by the trust with the revenue going towards the restoration OK
Could be some of it is replacement timber and copper nails a bit younger than the old Lady
The ship has had ongoing restoration since she was docked.
There was no Ebay in the 60's when we walked past her going ashore
All sorts of bits and bobs on the side of her dock.

Ned
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RRS01

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2011, 08:28:23 pm »

Such a crying shame!!  :((

As for Her being "pulled apart"  because of being not supported enough, now bear with me here, I saw an advertisement for a product called "Frog tape" and in it, they took some sort of powder and added water to it and it instantly became a gel ... Soooo, what if the repairs below the waterline were made, then they were to fill the dry dock with the appropriate amount of this powder, then add water to it to make it filled with this gel??  (After all, even though She still is commissioned, She never goes out to sea any more, does She??)

Granted I'm no scientist, but it seems like that would solve the lack of support along Her hull, thereby lessening gravity's effects of pulling Her apart!  Now, the rigging falling apart, that's just pitiful!!

Just an idea ...
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justboatonic

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2011, 10:15:54 pm »

Great stuff! While yet another item of our heritage slowly disintegrates before our eyes due to lack of investment, the workshy, crims and illegals get all the handouts they want without a bye your leave.

And as for RBS bankers bonuses, words fail me that once again, the tosspots and feckless risk takers who have landed us in such a position, continue to get their big fat couldnt careless snouts in the trough and to hell with the plebs.

We should take America's lead in this and make the banks pay back with interest, every single penny they took off us to bail them out.

Absolutely criminal.
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Perkasaman2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2011, 11:18:22 am »

I've just finished reading 'Jack Tar: Life in Nelson's Navy.' written by Roy and Lesley Adkin.
The review reproduced below is from a private buyer:

"This is a wonderful follow up to the Adkins' 2 previous books 'Trafalgar: Biography of a Battle' and 'War for all the Oceans', and I have thoroughly enjoyed all of them. In this volume the sailors take the limelight and history takes a step back to create the setting for their lives. And what lives they were!

I am always surprised how many sailors of all ranks were able to write journals and diaries about their time at sea, how literate they were, how perceptive and honest their observations were, and more surprisingly how those manuscripts have survived. The Adkins have carefully drawn from these and many other contemporary sources and woven them into their text to create a vivid picture of life in the British Navy at the time of Nelson and the war with France. A good selection of maps, and illustrations helps fuel the imagination, and, as ever, they have succeeded in presenting the flavour of the time, bring the people and events to life in such a way it is easy to suspend disbelief and fancy you are watching real time events

Electric fluid, birds of ill omen, ship wreck, coffee made from burnt bread, one armed cooks,rats in your pies, weevils in your biscuits, goats falling down the hatches, holystones, wash day, pay day, strong liquor, marriage certificates, wives, children, mistresses and dogs on board, volunteers and press gangs, hernias, amputations and disease, cockroaches like animated varnish on the walls, dancing, prize money, pensions and begging, betrayal, decency, heroism, births and deaths. They are all here, and more.

Anyone researching the life of an ancestor in Nelson's navy will find it an engrossing picture of their experiences, or if you just get jaded by the complacency of modern life, have watched one too many reality TV programs and read one too many dull blogs about the middle classes relocating to the country, immerse yourself in the true hardships these men and women suffered and emerge refreshed with your sense of perspective restored.

This is a good book in which to lose oneself on a winter's night in front of a warm fire while the storms rage outside."

The reviewer's description, for me, is spot on. The Victory is both a war memorial and national monument.This historic ship and those who sailed in her  represent benchmarks in every aspect. National Lottery funding ?  
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triumphjon

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2011, 09:31:46 pm »

article on our local news tonight , confirming the fact that she is slowly returning to nature , however as a still commisioned ship of our royal navy they are duty bound to keep her restored , so maybe somebody will be able to devise a plan of rectification before she deteriorates too much ?
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yorkiej

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 12:44:28 am »

'HMS Victory is riddled with rot and being pulled apart by its own weight.'
Just like the rest of the country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Spot on.
By current standards, I wonder what the odds are that someone will be quietly offered an inducement by the authorities to commit an act of arson on the old lady.
I can just imagine the cries of 'Oh dear' and the 'Wringing of hands' in public. With the sighs of relief in private.
This Country is a World laughing stock already and it gets worse every day.
The state of this National Icon is a disgrace and tantamount to Treason.
I am becoming more and more embarrassed to be British. When the NHS and other Institutions are held together by Charitable Donations we are not much better than Zimbabwe or the like. Our Politicians treat us with about the same disdain as the President of that Country does to his countrymen.
As my Granny used to say "May the Saints Preserve us".  She must be spinning in her grave, as must millions of others from that era.
Perhaps that is why we are having lots of Earth Tremors in the UK!!!!!!! 
Yours with anger
 John
 >:-o >:-o >:-o
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john s 2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 01:27:56 pm »

We nearly lost the Cutty Sark to fire. Watchmen inattentive. Fire alams not working etc. Luckly caught just in time. John.
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gondolier88

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 05:52:16 pm »

We nearly lost the Cutty Sark to fire. Watchmen inattentive. Fire alams not working etc. Luckly caught just in time. John.

Yes, but the Cutty Sark isn't supposed to be looked after by one of the largest Government Budgets, vis. defence budget, yet they are making a cracking job restoring her- the hull planking should be finished not long after easter.

The fire actually helped in a lot of ways as it allowed timbers and structural members that couldn't be inspected properly, or were deemed to be 'conservation worthy', but were really needeing replacement with only enough strength left to do their job with no safety margin were removed and will be replaced like for like in new timber/iron.


Victory of course being fully rigged and full timber construction would be totally gutted by fire and wouldn't be restored she would be rebuilt, though by this time in her life, excepting her frames, she will be pretty much like you grandfather's axe by now.

Greg
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funtimefrankie

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 06:56:08 pm »

ALL the tax I pay goes towards the Victory, I'll just have to earn/spend more and pay more tax
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triumphjon

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 09:40:17 pm »

given the age of the vessel ,. and the fact she is kept outside in all weathers do we all expect her to survive without a constant course of of remedial restoration program being carried out . victory was designed as a warship of her day and never as a public attraction that now has hundreds of people tramping over & inside her 7 days a week , she needs restoring again to preserve her for generations to come , but also needs a better method of supporting her hull !
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gondolier88

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 10:23:05 pm »

given the age of the vessel ,. and the fact she is kept outside in all weathers do we all expect her to survive without a constant course of of remedial restoration program being carried out . victory was designed as a warship of her day and never as a public attraction that now has hundreds of people tramping over & inside her 7 days a week

Ok, I'll apologise pre-technical definition, sorry;

Restoration- is the process of surveying a structure to ascertain what needs to be replaced to bring said structure back to it's original working condition on it's first day from the factory/boatyard/shipyard etc. There are varying grades of restoration from 'light'- making the structure sound by replacing like for like and to make it aesthetically correct, 'heavy'- making the structure sound by replacing like for like and to bring it back to working condition, lastly, 'rebuild'- using some original parts from the first structure a perfect copy of the original is made into a working condition.

Conservation- is the process of keeping an almost wholly original structure in the condition to which it is found, it will need to be stabilised (usually by recreating the environment it was found in chemically), and possibly be out of public display due to the stabilisation and the unsafe nature of the structure.

Replicate- is to take a wholly unrecoverable structure and to make an exact copy of it using original construction techniques.

The process that should have been used on Victory is Planned Scheduled Maintainance- something that is second nature to any one working on ships, large buildings and processing and manufacturing plants.

It is the ongoig process of inspection and surveying to ascertain what the next month/6months/year/2years/5 years and 10 years will need budget and timewise and to have a dedicated team of skilled engineers/craftsmen/shipwrights etc to uphold the maintainance programme.

PSM is THE baackbone of the Royal Navy, it's what enables the huge carriers through to the large submarines down to the little Atlantic 30 RIB to work in the most efficient and reliable manner possible.

The qeustion that needs to be asked is NOT why hasn't Victory been restored, but rather why has she been allowed to get to the point of full restoration in the first place?

Greg
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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 10:50:14 pm »

Quote
The question that needs to be asked is NOT why hasn't Victory been restored, but rather why has she been allowed to get to the point of full restoration in the first place?

Good point, especially as Victory has only recently emerged from a long ongoing repair programme which has seen various parts of the ship under covered scaffolding and masts and spars taken away for working on.

However, as someone who has been involved with building maintenance in a large public authority for much of my career, I have seen time and time again that there is a vicious circle which develops.

When the need to make general budget reductions is identified then the maintenance budget is always the first port of call. Why? Because when you cut the maintenance budget nothing happens -immediately. You don't have people demonstrating in the streets or whipping up a frenzy in the press or asking questions in Parliament. All it takes is just a stroke of the pen and hardly anyone notices. Those responsible may console themselves with the thought that they will restore the level of spending when the opportunity permits which it never does - or they may just think, quite correctly, that they personally will be somewhere else far away by the time the chickens come home to roost. I have seen this happen many, many times, the temptation is just too great.

So when the next round of spending cuts comes along, as it does, the original budget level is forgotten and the reduced one is taken to be the new baseline which is again cut in its turn. After a few spending reviews the original budget has been cut by 50% and the asset has significantly deteriorated to the extent that only major capital spending can rectify the situation but of course there are insufficient capital funds available to do this.

And that, my friends, is almost certainly what has happened in the case of the Victory and it also explains why all our roads are riddled with potholes and our schools are falling apart.

Colin

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Perkasaman2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2011, 12:22:39 am »

I think that 'the naval powers that be' do realise her need and recognise a serious dilemna. They may have to, finally, withdraw her  commissioned status in order to save her. This may be the only way of guaranteeing this great ship a chance of survival otherwise she must suffer through lack of funding. I'm sure the naval bods feel her plight as deeply as those expressed here and elsewhere. Her custodianship should/has to be a national responsibility and relieve the financial burden on the RN. I'm sure the RN have a real fear that if they let her go from their control and responsibility then she may be lost. It's ironic, but if she was a semi submerged wreck newly discovered in the Channel there would be huge interest and within months the dredgers would be out to float/salvage and money would pour in to the project. Instead we have THE whole ship virtually intact, and perfectly situated, on dry land. It's not just any old Napoleonic first warship (no disrespect intended) but the Flagship our greatest naval hero.
If she was a 'listed' building then discreet s/s horizontal tie rods with capping  thrust plates, etc. would be installed  for ensure lateral bracing/support. Given modern restoration skills and techniques it true to say 'the impossible takes a little longer'.......... but lots of .  
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john s 2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2011, 09:22:50 am »

Am i correct in assuming that as the Victory is still a commisioned  vessel that it falls out side of English heritage etc rules? So there is
no authority which can enforce repairs? If it was decommisioned would that be better for the navy? the problem with this may be lack
of funding avalible. the lottery fund etc appears stretched with the Olymphics etc. Could i have your ideas and sugestions please.
Thanks John.
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Perkasaman2

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2011, 12:55:57 pm »

??????????????? Time will tell.  :-)
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gondolier88

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2011, 04:47:23 pm »

Am i correct in assuming that as the Victory is still a commisioned  vessel that it falls out side of English heritage etc rules?

Rules  {-) {-) {-) {-) That's a good one!

If we had rules governing our maritime history then yes, but we don't- we have 'government guidelines' that are 'enforced' by indepenant non-power departments- such as National Historic Ships, who are a wonderful setup, have the right motives, do the best they can on a shoestring budget and do a fantastic job raising the profile of Britain's maritime history.

However, for example SL Dolly the oldest boat on the Lloyds Register still extant and the pride of the Windermere Steamboat Museum is looked upon by NaHS as one of the 'core collection' and one of the most important small boats in the UK- but if we cut her up with a chainsaw tomorrow, although probably getting sacked and charged with criminal damage, we wouldn't be doing anything illegal, and until the UK as a whole accepts it's responsibilty to look after these important vessels and to conserve them for future generations the government won't be 'wasting' any time drafting a bill to make it so.


Re. Victory; the RN is responsible to keep it's entire fleet ready to serve the Queen at the drop the hat, as flagship Victory is no exception, and the fact that isn't kept so probaby means that actually the dmiralty IS committing an offence, so as she stands she has far more going for her, but, as with everything I've said it boils down to one thing and one thing only - 's - how many of these things it'll take to do it...?

Greg
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Yarpie

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2011, 07:58:55 pm »

Having read and digested all of the foregoing, I would venture the opinion that HMS VICTORY is not, as reported in some elements of the national press, rotting away as seriously as is claimed.

We all know the desperate lengths journalists sometimes stoop to in order to capture a story, and that the truth is often the first victim.

I feel, over the course of the next few months, details will emerge that will largely discredit this issue.

I sincerely hope that I am correct in this and that, although 245 years old, VICTORY is not on her last legs/props.

I am 177 years younger than this historic vessel, and gravity is already exacting a toll on my frame. Most of my 'upper deck fittings' are misshapen and I am to have remedial work done on my 'underwater fittings' this month! :embarrassed:

There's life in the old girl yet. :-))
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farrow

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Re: HMS Victory rotting away!
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2011, 10:51:30 pm »

It could be that the timber has dried out causing the frames etc to shrink, quite common on the old wooden working boats like Thames barges. You could always tell the difference between a working hull and a hull not in trade, because the working hull was smooth with no gaps between the planking, but the non working hull you could clearly see the plank edges and splits coming in the planks. Also I was told many years ago in the MoD that the Victories lower masts go through her keel into the bottom of the dock, the masts are metal clad in pine as the yards are metal, most of the guns are fibre glass. The windage pressure of her masts and rigging is taken up by wire stays secured to the dockside.
But how do you replace rotten frames, without taking the vessel apart, especially when most probaly the skilled men required no longer exist as the size and amount of seasoned timber required if available would cost an absolute fortune. Plus how much of the original ship still exists, on the Waverly it is now only her engines.
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