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Author Topic: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?  (Read 813039 times)

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #325 on: June 21, 2007, 09:03:24 PM »

Good idea ;)

Maybe the X-men have got to him ;D
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #326 on: June 22, 2007, 08:23:03 AM »

Well well well, if you guys care to look at the buildthebismarck.co.uk forum under General Discussion in the Reaction from Amati topic the photos of the inaccuries have finally been posted, am gonna carefully checkut the info ;)
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #328 on: June 22, 2007, 09:13:05 AM »

Thanks for that Martin as I did not want to carry the can regarding posting the pics ;)
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #329 on: June 22, 2007, 09:29:25 AM »

Now Amati has some explaining to do. A few questions however.

Portholes, OK scuttles. if we are getting these overlays they are very different from the real thing how did amati mess up the stern? Anchor position I am thinking of.

Is it possible these are preproduction overlays.

The vents above the bilge keels. Where did the plans origonate from? Semens the contractor changed the design of the turbines at the last minute, this may have affected the vents, was this dipected on the drawigns Amati used.

How did Amati authenticate the drawings they claim the kit was based on, Bismarck did undergo some design changes along the way from conception to launch. In wartime things change quickly.

Brass etching look ok, not the best I have seen but passable.

I assume Amati/Hachette are using more than one supplier for the parts, this may explain why some people are complaining their bits are too small or too large, builder error is another reason.


Now we have seen the pictures it would be interesting to get Hachette/Amati's view on the whole fiasco.

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #330 on: June 22, 2007, 09:47:43 AM »

Well there does now seem to be significant substance behind what the Germans are saying regarding inaccuracies, I suppose the main concern for the UK is are the very same points raised by them going to end up here too?

I suppose it depends if the parts have already been made in advance or what the cost might be to change the tooling etc, also will any changes compatible with the existing design?

My guess is that we will see the same here as the cost to change could easliy strip any profits and there is aslo a time factor as one the ball is roling on a partwork you cant just stop it for a few months to get it right.
i think it likely that Hachette will try and ride out the storm in the hope that many will simply accept the end result as it is rather than what was to be the case >:(

At the end of the day it is Amati who are to blame if the model is inaccurate, Hachette are only the publisher/seller, though responsiblity regarding how this series was marketed lies completely with Hachette and any entitlement to refund etc, so maybe there should be a little sympathy for Hachette as if the were advised this model was accurate then they can only go on what they have been told :-\

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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #331 on: June 22, 2007, 11:45:31 AM »

we have decided to get a neutrals view on how easy the kit appears to be so far to build. My nephew has built a simple tug. One I bought him from SHG and he is very pleased with it but thats as far as his moddeling goes. So armed with the instructions and the frame in front of him Sam asked him what he thought of it. Well he said what others have said its not that easy to build.

So once again the marketing gurus have gone full speed and hyped it up. It appears the partwork compaines never learn. One thing I am wondering is the inaccuracies with the Titanic did Amati correct them when they realeased the kit themselves? I think not and they let it go as is, cost of tooling etc is the most likly reason.

As anyone asked Amati how they authenticated the plans they claimed to use? I feel an e-mail comeing on!

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #332 on: June 22, 2007, 12:16:32 PM »

What a partwork series needs is to appeal to as many people as possible, if you said it was only suitable as an intermediate kit then it would likely limit its sales, what there clever marketing depts do is to carefully provide enough hype about a series to attract as many buyers as possible, even if it is tongue in cheek statements that are a little wide of the mark, they call it good marketing I call it deceit ;)

A good example to use right now is that Taggart DVD series that has just been advertised on TV by DeAgiostini, one of my rely's is a Taggart nut and bought into it, the series is described as having full length episodes yet in reality the DeAgostini version of each episode has been cut down in length to suit there needs for why who knows?
This means that scenes and footage is missing against the original footage resulting in each DVD being short in run time by as much as 10-15 mins, so in effect they are not full length episodes, what does make me laugh is that the original episodes are currently being shown on ITV 3, so who is kidding who?

It does make you wonder about the Bismarck plans Amati used, does this also mean they may have a get out clause for what they have supplied as the kit?
Surely a plan exists for what they have supplied or could it be that the version supplied is based on a combination of plans?....Reason being there statement reads "reproduced from the original plans", this may suggest more than one plan may exist which I think it does or am I being too picky?
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #333 on: June 22, 2007, 03:58:21 PM »

I don't think you are being too picky, more than one set of plans were known to exist. on the web is a guy who calls his site 'the dreadnaught project' sorry I can't remember the exact url but I could find it whan I am home. Anyway, at the end of WW2 the russians did cart off a shed load of plans as a basis for improvements to their navy, they are now being realeased to the public. I don't know if Bismarck is amoungst them but most of the kriegsmarine is. I have seen scans of these and according to my friend here they look like the real deal.

Blomn & Voss shipyard was heavily bomed but some plans did survive, I know there are at least several in existance, Berlin, NMM, Carnegie etc. What i don't know is if any of these sets are complete and what issue? Has there were several re-thinks along the way did all of the plans in existance reflect the changes or just who it affected. Amati might have use an early set which was several amendment behind reality, but I would ahve thought they would have asked someone like Joesef Kaiser who wrote the historical blurb.

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #334 on: June 22, 2007, 04:27:59 PM »

You might well be right ;)

The DeAgsotini Hood kit had similar questions raised about its authenticity, it was shown having a Fairy Swordfish plane & catapult system, it transpired that were later removed in the ships life but the deagostini model was based on a plan at that moment in time.

Is this possibly a similar scenario we have here with the Bismarck I wonder?

Am no historian but no doubt it will have undergone many alterations in its life which is likely to have generated many plans, or have Amati married part of two different sets of plans possibly?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #335 on: June 22, 2007, 06:08:56 PM »

I doubt if Bismarck uinderwent any major changes after completion - she wasn't afloat for long enough!
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #336 on: June 22, 2007, 08:24:07 PM »

judging by some of the ideas I have read on a couple of other forums neather will theirs! ;D ;D ;D

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #337 on: June 22, 2007, 08:32:02 PM »

 ;D ;D ;D could not have put it better myself ;D ;D ;D

I hope Hachette have there thick skins on next week as by Weds I will be on there case for some answers, they may want to stick there heads in the sand but they cant hide ;)
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #338 on: June 22, 2007, 09:05:31 PM »

Amati would have done well to contact these people, they went to Blomn & Voss to inspect the original plans and builders model.

http://www.fineartmodels.com/pages/product.asp?content_area=3&sub_area=11&product_area=59

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #339 on: June 23, 2007, 10:55:20 AM »

I cant wait to hear of what version of plans Amati have used, something tells me that all is not how it seems here ;)
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jinks8

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #340 on: June 23, 2007, 08:23:26 PM »

the vents if one looks are the same on both sides of the ship it is obvious both cut to the sane template  or program y do two when one will do.Just do one and hope you can get away with it on the other hand the only people to know for shorer are the men that cut them. 
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #341 on: June 23, 2007, 09:48:30 PM »

The vents are cooling ducts for the engine rooms machinery and as Bismarck had three engines then the cooling ducts should reflect this, by that I mean they should be different on one side as shown in the 'drawing' in this link.

http://buildthebismark.proboards52.com/index.cgi?board=generalbuild&action=display&thread=1182265787&page=2

Semens who supplied the turbine machinary changed theri mind at the last minute, the question we are asking Amati is where did they get the 'original plans' from they mention in the pull out of issue one. If they used the first draft then the vents has shown could be correct. The first draft intended electric propulsion. But technology wasn't that far advanced to make the design relyable so turbines was installed at the last minute. This would entail changes in the cooling circuit, but what those changes were I don't know. Blom & Voss has some plans but others exist but what I am trying to find out is how accurate are they to the vessel which we see at the bottom of the Bay Of Biscay.

It does look as though they used one set of tooling but in the picture is a drawing of what is claimed the vents are supposed to look like. How do we know which version is correct the drawing or the wooden overlay, are they both wrong, are they both correct but depict electric proplsion or turbine as in the final vessel. Until Amati makes thier position clear as to what 'original plans' they used we have to guess.

I have sent an e-mail to ThyssenKrupp Marine systems who own Blom and Voss to ask what plans they have and if they could tell me if amati as used them. IF i get a reply i'll post it on here, but don't hold your breath.

Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #342 on: June 24, 2007, 09:09:10 AM »

Very well put Daryl, not a great deal to ad other than Amati had better come clean PDQ ;)

The german guy says in germany they have still have not recieved the Hachette RC pack yet, talk about very late in the build as they are at issue 43, I cant wait to see the hack job Hachette suggest and the UK wont see the RC packs until way after Xmas :o

No wonder why they are all doing there own thing re running gear, its looking like a right back to front build we have looming in the distance >:(
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #343 on: June 25, 2007, 04:36:51 PM »

Seems Amati/Hachette France are running silent and dont want to respond to the germans re the inaccuracies/problems, same here for us with Amati & Hachette UK.
Plan to give Hachette until the middle of the week then its Mr Angry time as it is ultimately Hachette who need to sort this matter out and with a sense of urgency >:(

They can run but they cant hide ;)
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #344 on: June 25, 2007, 09:12:44 PM »

At last I have a reply from Amati, in fractured english but you will all get the gist of it.

Dear Mr Dobbs,

thank you for your enquiry about Bismarck model.

We bought plans to the Blohm and Voss in Germany and we had also some  books about the model and pictures of the real ship.

Concerning the only mistake we made we note the position of the  anchor post and in fact (after inserting spacer on the back) the  anchor stays lower.

Concerning portholes (turbines water passage) on the bottom of the  hull we note different position also in the Blohm and Voss drawings.
May be on some plans this water grates are different.
Anyway please note that we made a model to show it to modelers (first  issue) and no complaints was made about this position.

Concerning portholes please note we'll give printed templates to  complete lateral holes in issue 53-54 together with photo-etched parts.

I understand a lot of plans are on the market and every plans may be  different from the other.

Please feel free to contact us about any problem.

Best regards

AMATI SpA

Well there you have it, not from sergio this time and what looks like a standard letter.

Daryl
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #345 on: June 25, 2007, 09:21:15 PM »

just had this reply from one of the specalist Bismarck forums regarding the location of original plans.

Hello Daryl

There are drawings of Bismarck in the hands of private collectors. The archive in Frieberg Germany has about 300 drawings of Bismarck, most are produced by the German navy. These drawing were sent out to the various ship yards for them to work from. There are several drawings from manufactures on the various pieces of equipment used on Bismarck.

It is possible that the company you speak of managed to find other drawings, but it is hard to say.

Regards

Jack Brower

For those who don't know Jack Bower wrote the book Anatomy of the Ship Bismarck. the company I spoke of was amati.

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #346 on: June 26, 2007, 08:13:44 AM »

Regarding the reply from Amati....

It stinks >:(

Just because they showed the model to 'other modellers', who as it happens did not spot the obvious mistake re anchor placement, or if they did then Amati did not change the design for the national/ world launch and it also does not mean the model is ok.

This is what I said about them saying the kit was 'reproduced from original plans', it leaves the door wide open to them to reproduce any version they like, what we dont know is which version this kit is.

Take it you have responded your thoughts as it seems they want to wash there hands of this, maybe direct it to Sergio or that Sara Marletti this time or even have a go at Hachette UK?
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #347 on: June 26, 2007, 08:41:26 AM »

Oh yes a reply is on its way, they must think we were born yesterday. I don't think their letter has answered any questions just raised more.

Daryl
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #348 on: June 26, 2007, 11:00:40 AM »

Amati has chosen to reply only to the question of what books they used, they have ignored the other questions I asked. here is their reply.

Good morning,

please refer to the following books:

Schlachtschiff Bismarck Das modell- Josef Kaiser - by SIMONFREY VERLAG
Schlachtschiff Bismarck Das original im detail- Josef Kaiser - by  SIMONFREY VERLAG

The Battleship Bismarck - Jack Brower - Anatomy of the ship - Naval  institute Press

Best regards

AMATI SpA

No surprises with that list.

Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #349 on: June 26, 2007, 11:18:57 AM »

Hmm interesting, it does make you woder if Kaiser was one of the people they showd this ship to?

But I see still no photos of the ship they used to reproduce this model, a closely guarded secrret it seems or possibly are the photos the talk of within the books mention?


I have just had a very speedy response from Isabelle at Hachette UK, again shot & sweet as follows:

"They are currently investigating the problems with there production manager"


Though should they not be investigating this directly with Amati or is that what she means?

So it does seem that Hachette UK are taking this matter seriously from the UK's point of view and hopefuly will address all points without being murky, here's hoping anyway ;)
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