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Author Topic: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?  (Read 849458 times)

jinks8

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #175 on: June 09, 2007, 06:05:59 PM »

Daryl you will not find any ref to 200 scale on Lassek site it is a one off  and they do not lists it you have to e mail them to get then and it will coust you a small fortune you are best getting them form Markus :o 8)
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #176 on: June 09, 2007, 06:14:24 PM »

My hull seems  pretty straight at the moment but I'll double check it on Monday.
I would agree that due to the nature of this beast, twists and warps can easily creep in.
So far, still impressed with the design, VERY unimpressed with the subscription service!
The Glue seems to be golding the unsanded laser cut edges quite well... I glued something that shouldn't have been!

I don't think I'll make mine RC as it will mean hacking the hull around something rotten which may effect something later on that I don't know about yet. I may put in two small shafts and motors once the planking is on. Does anyone know if the unaltered build has hatches or a removeable top?

Can you post the link to the Germain site/page where he converting to RC please.

Also,  are the Germain issues slightly out from ours?

Martin.... But what do I know?  ::)

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Cargo

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #177 on: June 09, 2007, 09:42:53 PM »

This is the german site of the hachette bismark: http://www.die-bismarck-bauen.de/bestellen.htm

Available as rc or static kit, Amati has developed the bismark.
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #178 on: June 09, 2007, 10:04:31 PM »

The site for the forum with the German guy adding in three motors has some very nice pictures which may help witht he motors. It also has previews by clicking on another link of the issues the germans had. From what I can gather Hachette has used the same pictures and translated the german into English. After all this rabbeting its
 www.buildthebismarck.co.uk

There is a .com site which does contain some info but the .co.uk has the more..... let us say radical methods ;D ;D ;D

As for a warped hull yes I would clamp it straight and dampen the wood a little but not drown it. When it dries out it may get better, but the moisture in the glue providing it is securly clamped should help straighten it. The extention on the stern keel was slightly twisted but Sam managed to streighten it out when he added the parts from issue 9 &10. It has been on a shelf since yesterday afternoon when he came home from school and it hasn't twisted so I think we have got away with it but the planking puts a lot of strain on the hull so it has to be done evenly and carefully.

As for hacking the stern around for three motors Sam has decided to install two and go with the instructions from hachette, but has Down below rightly says the Germans are a bit ahead of us so any problems should be flagged up on the .co.uk site. I don't think we will get the German guy/ lassek stuff but will go with either Hachette or our own stuff. two motors should be enough. All up weight is still a concern and we look with interest when some of these mods take to the water.

Daryl
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leaky

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #179 on: June 10, 2007, 07:25:21 AM »

Thanks for the advice i bought it to work this morning and measured it in our inspection dept and scanned all the results in and produced a 3d image and processed the sizes and found it is flat and true to about 0.1mm then i did the same with a big steel rule to make sure isn't technology wonderful.BUT i found my error i build on two benches 90degrees to each other i have two battalions of wargames figures(my other hobby)on my main bench and found after checking my secondary bench has a very slight warp so in the words of my hero DOH!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #180 on: June 10, 2007, 08:12:08 AM »

Glad its fixed. enjoy the build. thats the best part of going to work getting all the 'homework' done. ;D ;D ;D

Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2007, 09:10:47 AM »

My hull seems  pretty straight at the moment but I'll double check it on Monday.
I would agree that due to the nature of this beast, twists and warps can easily creep in.
So far, still impressed with the design, VERY unimpressed with the subscription service!
The Glue seems to be golding the unsanded laser cut edges quite well... I glued something that shouldn't have been!

I don't think I'll make mine RC as it will mean hacking the hull around something rotten which may effect something later on that I don't know about yet. I may put in two small shafts and motors once the planking is on. Does anyone know if the unaltered build has hatches or a removeable top?

Can you post the link to the Germain site/page where he converting to RC please.

Also,  are the Germain issues slightly out from ours?

Martin.... But what do I know?  ::)



The conversion being posted by the German guy does not replicate what is to come in the mag series, also I dont think many are aware that the RC system, motors, esc etc are an 'extra' from Hachette costing around 115.

Though the German guys set-up seems well thought out its not an easy installation for the novice to take on with a lot that could go very wrong, like you say, hacking around the Hull when you dont know what is in the mind on Amati could be a dangerous move. also as mentioned preiously balance, weight & control could also be an issue if you step outside what is being supplied, am not saying dont convert but for those wanting to go this route just be mindful of the many things that will need to be overcome to get it right.

This series was launched in Germany some 25 weeks before the UK and so they are approx 25 weeks in front of the UK build being at around issue 40.

The build does incorporate a removable bridge section regardless of going the static or RC route, the frame parts for this are supplied from issue 1 thru to 10 (a photo of this frame can be clearly seen at the botom of page 10 within issue 5), just remember not to glue the parts that make up this frame to the Hull framework, otherwise you wont then have a removable section for access to the RC gear, (though this will not matter if you are just building the static version, though it will if you wish to later convert it to RC).

Leaky, glad to see all is well and a sigh of relief no doubt.
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2007, 01:46:50 PM »

Couple of pictures posted on buildthebismarck.co.uk of the German guy's drilling of the centre shaft. Nice drilling job but one that could easily go wrong if the hole is not dead centre. I noticed someone on that forum has decided to drill out the keel after he has glued it to the hull and put the frames on. He drilled from both ends and the bit in the middle which he couln't reach he burnt out with a hot nail!!! Brave man on a wooden hull.

I read that on the same forum to help lining up in the resin part someone drilled out a succsession of bigger holes to form a 'cone', I assume the idea is to allow movement of the shaft when aligning it up with the motor.Not the best idea methinks, mor scope for messing up the resin part and water to enter.

More convinced than ever to go with Amati/Hachette. I don't think it would need 3 motors unles someone wants to start a fast electric Bismarck racing series  ;D ;D ;D

Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2007, 02:16:14 PM »

Think your spot on there Daryl, some of the mods seem extreme or even barbaric to say the least :o

A thought to ponder....No doubt Amati, Hachette & Thunder Tiger will have considered a three motor design for this model and for some reason settled on a twin motor set-up, in that case one might wonder as to why ???

Surely it's not down to the insignificant cost of a 3rd motor setup for a project that already tiips the scales in 's before you consider any RC installation ;)

Have you seent these postings...

"Adding 45 degree bits of scrap ply to keep the frames at 90 degrees  which also adds strength", sounds fair enough but there already appears to be a weight issue and adding wood wont help especially where its not needed ;)

"A three motor Bis will outpace the 20 euro toy boats", a little lost for words on that one but it will be great to see a Bismarck hydroplane ;D
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2007, 02:29:47 PM »

I missed that post but I will search for it.

One thought occured with all the hacking, drilling and burning going on the back end won't be as strong as Amati intended unless some serious re-inforcing is done. With the torque of the servo, the stern will be want to twist in the same direction when the rudders move. Weakening the keel without reinforcment would result in twisting or at worst a crack with the stern falling off. Just a thought which is probibly wide of the mark.

I agree Amati et al must have had good resons to abandon the third motor, I doupt I would get a reply but I am tempted to e-mail them and sound out their thoughts.
 
Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2007, 02:35:04 PM »

Moreso, maybe ask if they recommend a third motor set-up, my guess is they will not recommend as they will then be liable for any comeback, so if they dont recommend that might suggest its a big no no.

Just a thought, any technical query should be directed to Amati as Hachette are only the publisher and Jacklins are a only a call centre.
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #186 on: June 11, 2007, 02:43:04 PM »

I have jsut sent a e-mail to Amati asking if they considered a third motor if it was dissmissed then could they give em the reson why. I also added that it is not ment as a criticism in any way nor am I suggesting they should endorse departing from the instructions, I was jsut curious.

I wonder if I will get a reply.

Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #187 on: June 11, 2007, 02:47:43 PM »

 ;D ;D  I have just done the very same with some probing questions, lets see if we get the same reply, at least then it will be from the horse's mouth so to speak, I dont think I have read anywhere that this direct question has been asked of Amati.

Hope one or both of us get's a response, probably in broken Italian ;)
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #188 on: June 11, 2007, 03:40:13 PM »

Yipee i got a reply, here it is.

Hallo Daryl,

thank You for your message.

The reasons why Hachette decided to fit two motors only (instead of  three) are three:

1- The motor set was much more expensive and also the Radio control  set and electronic speed control
2- The building of the hull was completely different and the back of  the model was to much difficult to realize for a lot of unexperienced  people who is building the model.
3 - Running the model was also much more difficult.

By our side we think the model (with three props anyway) will  reproduce very well the real battleship. As soon as the model is into  the water (and props are underwater) noboty realize if the central  prop is turning or not.

Thank you for your kind opinion.

Best regards

AMATI SpA



This seems to come to the same conclusions as most of us have reached, the kit is not for the complete novice. I got a reply much quicker than i thought I would. Many thanks went winging its way to Amati.

Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #189 on: June 11, 2007, 03:53:24 PM »

And ditto here, exactly the same reply word for word ;D the good thing is Amati seem to be well on the ball :)

So there you have it, make your own minds up, partly a cost issue but it seems mainly that if your a novice it might well be an idea to keep well clear of installing three operating props and that comes from the horse mouth ;)

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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #190 on: June 11, 2007, 04:06:31 PM »

Ummm ??? ??? I think they have been asked this question many times before and have composed a standard reply. Still nice to get the answer from the horses mouth. Differs from Hachetts blurb which says it is within the capabilities of anyone. Then again most likley is if you follow their instructions carefully which a lot of people appear not to be doing.

On the 'other side' a few posts have been appearing which says one of the frames 43a in some issues are to small. well my son (junior AKA Sam) has had a look and he says nope looks ok when a plank is put against it, the reported gap in some issues don't appear. Clumsy building, poor quality standards who knows but ours is ok.

Daryl
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #191 on: June 11, 2007, 04:16:50 PM »

Yeah mine is ok too.

I noticed a few so called problems had appeared on the german sites in that some found they had a problem and some had not, if it was a problem then surely it would surface across the board, it does lead one to think it is down to the individual build rather than poor manufacture or design.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #192 on: June 11, 2007, 04:35:25 PM »



I think the main reason for recommending only two shafts is the whole integral strength of the stern is built up on the central keel piece. To modify the build as is, you would need to drill / cut through the whole of this lot and then reinforce it to regain the structural integrity. The whole project would require a redesign back on the drawing board ( screen! ) to cater for a center shaft.
If I do go the RC route, I'm not decided yet, I'm think of fitting 2 x 550's with a free wheeling center propeller.

Has anyone seen the propeller that come with the magazine yet?




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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #193 on: June 11, 2007, 04:38:25 PM »

I have just noticed on the relativly senseible but quiet buildthebismarck.com forum that several people are using Ronseal woodfiller which as some of the posts say is watersoluble. Odd, if you use waterproof glue intending to sail the model then I would have thought it prudent to use waterproof filler, better be safe than sorry. Sometimes cost cutting can go disastriously wrong, the firm I work for are masters at that!

Daryl
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #194 on: June 11, 2007, 04:48:04 PM »

I don't think they have been issued in germany yet, but the .co.uk bunch seem to have jumped to the conclusion they wont work? I am not convinced i'll wait and see what turns up.


Daryl
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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #195 on: June 11, 2007, 04:55:09 PM »

Martin, the props that come with the Hachette RC pack appear to be standard black nylon types though for the static version I they are brass, a lot in Germany seem to be dismissing the pack as being rubbish as Daryl says.

Daryl, I dont think it is a case of cost custting but its more a case of dont realise the implications as is the case with those building the RC version using standard PVA glue ;)


Better still here is a link to the Hachette RC set to be offered at a later date

http://www.subifa.de/heftvorschau/vorzugsangebot.htm

The radio system comes from Thunder Tiger, what i dont see is a cell pack & charger so presume they are in addition to the cost of this RC pack but unsure if they are also to make these available me thinks not :o
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anmo

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #196 on: June 11, 2007, 06:29:39 PM »

Looking at Martin's pic of the stern structure. I'd say that if anyone really wanted to fit a third shaft to their Bismarck, it would all have to be done right at the beginning, before any formers etc were glued to the keel, any other way is going to weaken the structure too much, or add a lot of weight. The best way would be to cut a slot in the keel, epoxy it back together with the shaft in place, and then fit full length ply doublers to make everything solid. After that of course, all the formers would have to be trimmed to fit over the added thickness. Isn't solving a problem of this kind, always dead easy with hindsight? Once things have got to the stage of Martin's model, I'd say that hacking everything about to fit a central shaft would be a very bad idea. I'll stick to scratch building though, much easier than trying to work out was was in the mind of whoever designed whatever kit you're trying to put together. Scratch builders make mistakes of course, but at least they're our mistakes, not those of some kit designer in another country.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #197 on: June 11, 2007, 06:49:08 PM »



OK, going off at a bit of a tanget here ( I may have to start ab new topic ), but "why oh why are they using GEARBOXES on an electric boat!"  >:(

I hate the things, noisy, power sapping, clunky things! I understand the need for slow reverloutions or high torue output but as I understand it motor timings, armature windings and motor configuration can be arrange to suit almost any aplication - so why gearboxes?!?!  :-\ Surley for a given voltage and known propeller a suitable motor can be made. Graupner, Robbe and all the others have hundreds of diffrent motors in their catalouges so surely they get them made to their own specification.

Rant over, you can start correction me now.....


Lights off...... lie down........ "Happy place, happy place..........."
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Down below

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #198 on: June 11, 2007, 07:06:36 PM »

Anmo - Could not have put it better myself and is what we are trying to convey, the addition of a thrid motor changes an awful lot.
What the German guys failed to say from the outset is if you wish to go the three motor route then it should be incorporated from the start of the build and not as an afterthought, or if your a novice to building such models especially that incorporate RC then the safest bet is to stick with the two motor set-up being offered via Hachette, as no doubt it is a tried & tested installation that works.

I agree scratch builders do make mistakes and like you say they are there own miistakes not those of some designer in a far off land or for that matter modification components being offered in that the end result has yet to be put to the test ;)

Martin - Basically its a cheap cheap route to what they need to achieve, its quite comon place for partwork components to be of an old design format or poor quality, simple reason being they are very cheap to manufacture and have a high profit value, it is what partworks are all about, getting a product out there for little as possible cost but for the highest perceived value, you get a load of parts it looks like you get a lot for your money, you get two items and it looks poor value for money :o

Yes your right the gear format could have so much better better electronically done but that was never going to happen with what is on offer hence why the RC pack on offer is about as basic as it gets, however nothing stopping you adding what components suits you as long as you have some idea of what you are upagainst.

I digress, but can remember a couple or three years ago Deagostini did an RC car, it had a mechanical speed controller which was naff and went out with the ark donkeys years ago, it had loads of burn-out problems and very inefficient, a simple esc swop gave that model the shot in the arm it needed ;)
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Daryl

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Re: Build the Bismarck - a "Hachett" job?
« Reply #199 on: June 11, 2007, 11:21:44 PM »

Intersting picture, My thoughts are and the first one has been brought up on the uk build site is.

1/ the two pictures look of a different boat, in the bottom one there is no resin part, at what point does that turn up in relation the r/c gear. also the planking is different between the two hulls.

2/the rudders look backwards they would hit the keel skeg, but this could be 'just for  photos'.

3/ what is the small prop shaft for?

looks like amati/hachette has taken the cheep, quick and easy option. junor and I will wait and see what the UK bunch says. We may go are own way and install our choice of r/c gear, (2 shafts).

I agree about the gearboxes, strange route they took there. I wonder what battery apck they have in mind or even gell chell.

I have just had a look at one of the German site which shows the instruction pages, it appears the resin part arrives in issue 15 and it is stuck to the hull in issue 35.  Does anyone know when the r/c gear is mentioned and when to install it. It must be proir to issue 35 as after then, hard luck the resin part is stuck on. With Hachettes total lack of control over the distribution this might mean people who buy their R/C gear waiting for a while and then playing catch up. Or glueing parts on then trying to remove them to put the r/c stuff in. The alteration to the keel as shown in the second picture is not mentioned at all up to part 40. More to puzzle over until the bits arrive. I assume the instructions to install the r/c gear is not included in the mag but sent with the parts. With the alterations shown in the bottom picture and the previews on the German site there are several instancies where the instructions differ from the bottom picture showing the Amati/Hachette/ Tunder tiger gear.

Daryl
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