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Author Topic: Modifying a automobile starter motor  (Read 20503 times)

essex2visuvesi

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2011, 08:37:37 am »

Wheelchair/mobility scooter motors may well be an option too
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triumphjon

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2011, 11:33:28 am »

id go with the smallr diameter motors , ie blower , or the ones from a seat or window operating system , much lighter and easier to retreive from any donar vehicle , some of the morer modern trucks have elecy windows if you wanted to go for 24volt versions !
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Circlip

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2011, 12:03:39 pm »

If going for the wiper motor route, then the commercial vehicle models (Trucks and buses) are the ones to go for. These are made to cope with loooong periods of service. Forget any window or seat motors, short run operation again (Unless you've managed to couple them to your in car entertainment system). Most car motors have suffered from a "Cost Evaluation" exercise so, beware.

  Regards  Ian.
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Yarpie

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2011, 12:19:39 pm »

RRS01,

the image of the square rigger that I posted was of our Team Chairman with our model of HMS VICTORY, build specifically for the Trafalgar 200 celebrations. I don't have a square rigger myself (I referred to HMS RODNEY remember) but I have driven the VICTORY model in a display.

In answer to your questions:

the shaft size of a blower motor varies, but 1/4" Imperial would be about average. No real danger of getting bent provided that the propeller shaft is kept as short as possible and that the rudder is manufactured in such a fashion as to provide some protection to the propeller.

We don't control the sails. The only control measures we use are to reef-in the sail area in adverse windy conditions. The square riggers need to be in control at all times during pyrotechnic displays in order to give the most impressive of battle conditions, so are therefore propelled principally by the motors. If these vessels are propelled at a realistic speed, it certainly can give the impression that they are powered by the elements alone.

Some masts are designed to collapse during battle and we even have vessels that partially sink too!

I hope that this has been of help to you and if you need further clarification, please visit our website at: www.pmbdt.co.uk where you will find more details about the HMS VICTORY build.

Good luck on your project and happy sailing. :-))

Sandy.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2011, 02:30:19 pm »

SORRY, I got cut of in mid thought  %) :embarrassed:

here it is again

don't trolling motors need to be in the water to keep them from overheating? I'm hoping that I can make everything pretty much self contained and won't need to put a keel extension on my boat ... plus, a keel extension would scrap my plans to use a jet ski trailer to haul it with  :D

(on a side note, just what is a 'quid'?  I know, I know, it's money, but what is it's value ranking in relation to 'pound' (sterling?)  Please forgive my ignorance, but, hey, I'm from the States)



Yes, you are absolutely right about the electric outboards, they should not be run dry for any length of time, so disregard all my ( now useless! ) information and gear down a blower motor on a 100mm dia prop :-)

As to the question 'what is a quid?'  The answer is; less and less every week :-))
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grasshopper

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2011, 04:03:16 pm »

Put the man out of his misery....... A 'quid' is one pound, like your 'buck' is a dollar.
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2011, 04:55:28 pm »

Thanks for the monetary clarification!  :-)

Quote
As to the question 'what is a quid?'  The answer is; less and less every week Thumbs up
  Welcome to the club!!  <:(   But, hey, it's STILL worth about two and a half times what a dollar is!!  <:(  <:(

Is the 'Pound' still "formally" known as the "Pound Sterling"?  and where does a "Farthing" fit into the mix?   :D
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2011, 05:51:27 pm »

Thanks for the monetary clarification!  :-)
  Welcome to the club!!  <:(   But, hey, it's STILL worth about two and a half times what a dollar is!!  <:(  <:(

Is the 'Pound' still "formally" known as the "Pound Sterling"?  and where does a "Farthing" fit into the mix?   :D

A Farthing is the little wheel on the back of an old bycycle!!!
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tobyker

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2011, 05:51:41 pm »

Indeed, the Pound Sterling it still is. The farthing was a quarter of a penny, when a penny was 1/240th of a pound. (1 pound was 20 shillings of 12 pence each) I think the farthing ceased to be legal tender in the early 1950's but someone will put me right. The farthing had a picture of a wren on the "tails" side. My sister has a tin full of them. Now we are all decimal so things will only divide by 2 or 5, as opposed to 2,3,4,6,8,12. (8 half crowns in a quid, so one half crown was 2/6d) Those were the days..
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2011, 11:47:31 pm »

Indeed, the Pound Sterling it still is. The farthing was a quarter of a penny, when a penny was 1/240th of a pound. (1 pound was 20 shillings of 12 pence each) I think the farthing ceased to be legal tender in the early 1950's but someone will put me right. The farthing had a picture of a wren on the "tails" side. My sister has a tin full of them. Now we are all decimal so things will only divide by 2 or 5, as opposed to 2,3,4,6,8,12. (8 half crowns in a quid, so one half crown was 2/6d) Those were the days..
Thanks for that! I think I used to have some farthings when I was a kid ... along with some pence (it amazed me how BIG they were) and some "newer" pence (and how much smaller they were than the other pence) I just kept wondering, what the hell! (as to the size difference) and a few schillings ...

NOW back to more important things ...


We don't control the sails. The only control measures we use are to reef-in the sail area in adverse windy conditions. The square riggers need to be in control at all times during pyrotechnic displays in order to give the most impressive of battle conditions, so are therefore propelled principally by the motors. If these vessels are propelled at a realistic speed, it certainly can give the impression that they are powered by the elements alone.

Sandy.
Soooo, NO ONE actually"sails" their square riggers? they're all actually motor propelled??  with a keel extension  :((  and the sails just being for (for lack of a better word) "show"??   :o

Well, that would explain a lot!   :o  as in, I was wondering how one could adjust the yard arms and "play out" the sails and work the rudder with only a standard four channel transmitter (and keep from being blown over)  ... (DAMN! I've GOT to get out more!!!)  :embarrassed: 

Hmmmm, I'm gonna have to think on this some more ...  :D  O0
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nick_75au

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2011, 04:48:34 am »

On the subject of sailing square riggers, this is becoming quite a resource. ok2

http://www.rcgroups.com/scale-sailboats-653/

Nick
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2011, 10:03:03 am »

Thanks for that! I think I used to have some farthings when I was a kid ... along with some pence (it amazed me how BIG they were) and some "newer" pence (and how much smaller they were than the other pence) I just kept wondering, what the hell! (as to the size difference) and a few schillings ...

NOW back to more important things ...
Soooo, NO ONE actually"sails" their square riggers? they're all actually motor propelled??  with a keel extension  :((  and the sails just being for (for lack of a better word) "show"??   :o

Well, that would explain a lot!   :o  as in, I was wondering how one could adjust the yard arms and "play out" the sails and work the rudder with only a standard four channel transmitter (and keep from being blown over)  ... (DAMN! I've GOT to get out more!!!)  :embarrassed: 

Hmmmm, I'm gonna have to think on this some more ...  :D  O0

As an owner of one of the teams square riggers...

I would like to clarify how we operate them. There is nothing better than motoring up wind 100 yards up the lake, letting the model swing round, down wind, and sailing the model on wind power alone, back down the lake. During displays the models need to be controlled totally, as you are operating in an environment with the public in fairly close proximity. Therefore you cannot afford to leave anything to chance, such as the wind direction, hence motors. Dont tell anyone, but HMS Dolphin (pictured) also has bow thrusters fitted!!
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2011, 06:49:31 pm »

Quote
I would like to clarify how we operate them. There is nothing better than motoring up wind 100 yards up the lake, letting the model swing round, down wind, and sailing the model on wind power alone, back down the lake. During displays the models need to be controlled totally, as you are operating in an environment with the public in fairly close proximity. Therefore you cannot afford to leave anything to chance, such as the wind direction, hence motors. Don't tell anyone, but HMS Dolphin (pictured) also has bow thrusters fitted!!
OK, that makes sense ... I'm sorry about all the stupid questions, but hey, I'm new at this!  %)   Sooo, do you use a standard 4 channel transmitter?  and what do you think about Jean-Claude Cornaz's transmitter for his Cutty Sark?

 I'm beginning to think he had help from Rathikrishna ! (I mean, it's WAY beyond my skill level, BUT I'm thinking it's what I'm going to want to try and replicate!)  :}  :}  :}
 
Thank You!  :-)  :-))
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2011, 10:59:20 am »

The transmitter shown has a lot of toggle switches, implying on/off functions.  These could all be multiplexed onto one channel, the data being sent as one device per frame in sequence, and decoded and stored as they leave the receiver (Time Division Multiplex).  Theres just the detail of learning about logic chips and the ins and outs of data transmission.  Just a matter of fairly intense study over time combined with determination, really. 
That leaves the 3 masts plus the rudder as analogue, 4 channels, plus the TDM channel.  What to do with the other channel on a 6 channel set?
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2011, 06:46:16 pm »

Hoist the 'Jolly Roger' and run out and fire the cannon!  :}   :-))
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2011, 06:57:14 pm »

The transmitter shown has a lot of toggle switches, implying on/off functions.  These could all be multiplexed onto one channel, the data being sent as one device per frame in sequence, and decoded and stored as they leave the receiver (Time Division Multiplex).  Theres just the detail of learning about logic chips and the ins and outs of data transmission.  Just a matter of fairly intense study over time combined with determination, really. 
That leaves the 3 masts plus the rudder as analogue, 4 channels, plus the TDM channel.  What to do with the other channel on a 6 channel set?

By the way, do you know of any book or manual that explains how all that is done?   Like  I was trying to explain to Rathikrishna, I am a produkt of the publik edjukasyun sistum of America   <:(  <:(   and I need all the help I can get!   %%  %%

 ;D  :-))
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2011, 08:03:37 pm »

I did my learning about chips and suchlike reading electronic hobby magazines such as "Practical Electronics" over many years.  Many of the articles were compiled into booklets published by Bernard Babani (dont know about availability in US).  There might be books detailing the use and understanding of digital integrated circuits that dont assume the reader already has a degree in electronics.  Radio Shack USED to have a good reputation in this field before they reputedly tried to compete with ToysRUs.
I haven't delved deeply into this site
http://www.play-hookey.com/digital/
but it looks like a good place to start.  There is quite a learning curve, but it is possible and probably well worthwhile.  Putting a lot of time into making your own is the only certain way of ensuring that a "real" manufacturer will produce exactly what you are looking for, usually at a fraction of the cost, about a third of the size, and just before you get yours working (years of experience, that is).
Best way is to get some hands on, preferably with something simple and cheap that might turn out useful.
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rathikrishna

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2011, 05:24:15 am »

Friends..its great topic indeed...but i have a doubt with all configurations mentioned here...a starter motor of a car, for about 800 CC will take more than 30 to 60 amps usually,and we can hope the timing about the battery used.instead i reworked on a motor, came from a wiper motor,of an autorickshaw, a three wheeled vehicle here, and its OK now, and i am waiting to fix it on my new craft, that the face of the craft like a football...it is too powerfull while droping a mere 700 to 1.2 amps at full prop load..all we know a heavy displacement craft never needs a high speed operation characteristics, so we can go for torquey motors for it..i altered its winding for 7.2 volts,and its compact as a RS 550..i will post some photographs and video regarding on this, so i hope it will help you some..my experiments and experience taught me, that ,its no need a high power motor to push a craft in to high speed, as you can see in my Co Axial contra rotating Destroyer..its a simple toy motor reworked for 6 volts.and in that video you can see how fast it is..the main advantage of using a less current eating motor is ,the time e get...i always get more than 2 to 3 hours of running time from a 6 volt 3.2 Amps battery...

For the mechanicals of my setup you can see this video..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZgcNTzuopE

And the craft fitted with it is here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z5pYu70PMc

And never forget to post some links here that you feel usefull for us...i will post a detailed photographs along with a video that i using the wiper motor...have a nice day...
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RRS01

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2011, 07:23:03 am »

Friends..its great topic indeed...but i have a doubt with all configurations mentioned here...a starter motor of a car, for about 800 CC will take more than 30 to 60 amps usually,and we can hope the timing about the battery used.instead i reworked on a motor, came from a wiper motor,of an autorickshaw, a three wheeled vehicle here, and its OK now, and i am waiting to fix it on my new craft, that the face of the craft like a football...it is too powerfull while droping a mere 700 to 1.2 amps at full prop load..all we know a heavy displacement craft never needs a high speed operation characteristics, so we can go for torquey motors for it..i altered its winding for 7.2 volts,and its compact as a RS 550..i will post some photographs and video regarding on this, so i hope it will help you some..my experiments and experience taught me, that ,its no need a high power motor to push a craft in to high speed, as you can see in my Co Axial contra rotating Destroyer..its a simple toy motor reworked for 6 volts.and in that video you can see how fast it is..the main advantage of using a less current eating motor is ,the time e get...i always get more than 2 to 3 hours of running time from a 6 volt 3.2 Amps battery...

For the mechanicals of my setup you can see this video..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZgcNTzuopE

And the craft fitted with it is here...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z5pYu70PMc

And never forget to post some links here that you feel usefull for us...i will post a detailed photographs along with a video that i using the wiper motor...have a nice day...

Now THAT was AWESOME!!  :-)) First question: how did Your destroyer fare after what seemed to be an imminent crash? and the "cliff hanger" ending to the video?  :o (I hope she didn't crash, and if she did, not too hard!!)  It boggles my little mind when You say that Your older brother is so much better at model construction than You are! (BTW, I hope he recovers soon!)    I mean, granted I've only seen the video of Your ship, but she looked flawless!  :-))  but hey, I've got to admit I'm in AWE of the vast majority of the ships I've seen posted here on MBM!!

I have seen the error in my ways with my original thinking of using a starter motor ... I'm now trying to decide between a blower motor or wiper motor ... but hey, I'm in no rush, as mounting them is down the road a ways  :} (but I do plan to start acquiring the miscellaneous odds and ends as I go)

Needless to say, I'll be keeping an eye on You for inspiration and ideas!!  :-))   :-)  :-))   (I hope You don't mind! :} )
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rathikrishna

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #44 on: January 17, 2011, 09:58:23 am »

Hey 501, my ship crased on to the side wall..but fortunately there was a buch of grass and weeds almost saved my craft...bur i lost its nose a little..by now i have refinished it, now its ok..and i will post a detailed article regarding the issue of a wiper motor..Sir, another source of a good quality motor is from the window winder of a car...a motor from center loacking also helps...give me some time and i will post all stuffs from my experience here..so i hope it may help you all, like your ideas helped me..have a nice time..
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phillnjack

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 01:42:05 pm »

Ok here is my input about using car starter motors.

Vehicle starter motors  are not meant to be used with speed controlers.
A car starter motor needs all the power from the very beggining.

If you run them , they are ok for about 1 minute then a few minutes of cooling off time, this is how
they are designed.

Also running them on 12 volts as per their intentions is great as long as the voltage is realy 13.5 to 14.4 volts !!
Once the voltage starts to go down a bit they use a lot more power and harm is also done to the motors.

If you used a car starter motor on say 11 volts it wont last very long at all.
Car starters like the inertia type are made like a self destruct item, if no load is put on them they would
spin up till the point of self destruction.

I use car starters for whippet lure machines, as there proper speed is around 2,000 rpm, and i put a 9 inch spool on
them and run  lures at around 45 mph with these.
Power is tremendous, no model boat needs this amount of power.

You would be far better off with wheelchair motors that even have gearboxes already on them.
Mobility scooter motors are the same, very good and last for about 4 hours on a car battery.


phill
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rathikrishna

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2011, 01:54:32 pm »

Sir thanks for he guidance...now i am using a motor from a wiper assy, to my new X bow craft...i will post it here..its nice after reworking in to 6 volts..no dropping only 800 Ma, and gives me some immense power...so nice...thanks once again..
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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #47 on: January 27, 2011, 04:33:20 pm »

Phillinjack,
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sweeper

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #48 on: January 28, 2011, 03:50:46 pm »

Sorry for the missed posting yesterday - slight touch of machine trouble.

Your idea of reaching destruction speed is what is always taught to electrical students but in practice it's a bit of an urban myth.
If you take a small fractional horsepower motor (vacuum cleaner), remove the cooling fan (which acts as an air brake) and then energise the motor it will indeed reach the bang point. I did it as an apprentice (having had a lecture on the subject) and I would think it got up to about 20k rpm before the windings birdcaged out of the armature slots due to centrifugal force. There's very little clearance between armature and pole pieces!

On a normal motor the speed will increase certainly but not to the same high level. The armature is a larger diameter and the resultant drag through the air tends to keep the speed within reason. Certainly while working on 5hp fan motors this was the case - I nearly had a fit when the old electrician I was working with proposed running a one up on no load (I was sitting on it having a brew at the time). Fast yes, stayed in one piece though.

The use of a starter motor is not advised simply because they are not normally fitted with cooling fans. A few minutes running will see the internal temperature rising quickly. Although why anyone would wish to use a series wound motor is past my understanding, great for some applications but for a boat? Much simpler to stick with a shunt wound (wiper motor) or a compound wound, at least the speed characteristics would be fairly stable across the load range.

The change in  voltage would have an effect on the speed, speed is directly proportional to the applied voltage and would cause the current taken to increase to provide the same output power.

Hope this is of some use to someone.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Modifying a automobile starter motor
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2011, 06:30:35 pm »

The "modification" would likely consist of re-winding it, armature and field, but considering the work involved, a "proper" one would be a much better idea.
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