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Author Topic: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER  (Read 10769 times)

Arrow5

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NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« on: January 27, 2011, 10:32:26 PM »

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nhp651

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2011, 11:24:52 PM »

does anyone with parliamentary knowledge know how the normal man in the street can instigate a motion of no confidence in these idiots..........i would just love to lend my name to such a motion.
they are unbelievable when they can come out with a statement this morning about the riots in Egypt and say "we think the Egyptian governing regime should listen to what the protestes are saying.
since when, in the past 4 months has this government listened to anything that students or anyone has said in this country.......

they are contemptable, at least, and the way they are leaving this country defenceless.....treasonable at worst.
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tony23

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 12:06:25 AM »

I could not believe what I saw on the news about these Nimrods especially as they are built and finished ready for the sky it's absolute madness there is going to be all hell break loose when one of the old Nimrods falls out of the sky due to age. >>:-( I'm wandering why these were not offered for sale to other countries would it have been the technology in them that they did not want others to see.
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DavieTait

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 12:21:38 AM »

There are no other Nimrods left , all the Mk2's were retired last year due to safety concerns ( well loosing the one over Afghanistan with 14 crew meant they couldn't trust the unmodernised ones not to have trouble ).

I think we need to look at facts with this debacle , Labour postponed and postponed and postponed the upgrading program so many times that its over 10 years late , instead of getting 21 aircraft we were down to 9 and the prices were well over double what it would have cost if the program had been done on time. Labour did this time and time again , putting back the carriers meaning they will cost 1.8bn more to build and equip than they should have , putting back the Type 45 Destroyer program meaning the cost of each ship doubled and we're only getting 6 instead of the 12 we really need , the putting back of the Astute class SSN program meaning they're 6 years later than originally planned and again almost double the cost than if they had been ordered when they were supposed to start.

The Nimrods we were due to take this year had a sensor package that was 10 years old , computers that were years and years out of date and keeping these viable would have cost a lot more in the future than made much sense. I think they should have looked at the Mk2's , done a mid-life safety upgrade to extend airframe life for another 8 years to keep the fleet safe and available and looked at a new platform which would have been a safer bet for the future.

We have lost a world leading ASW asset which will be very very difficult to replace , we can only hope that no countries in Africa or South America go rogue and put an SSK or 2 into the Atlantic to cause trouble , if they do we will be very hard pressed to deal with them without the capabilities the Nimrods had.

I think this is a very short sighted way to deal with defence of the realm , Labour left a huge black hole in the Defence budget which will take decades to clear off and I hope we do not need to go to war far from home ( Falklands anyone ) for 10 to 20 years as of now with the scrapping of Ark Royal and the Harrier fleet we are dangerously exposed and dangerously ill equipped
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Perkasaman2

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 01:39:10 AM »

The RAF have 6 of the larger, more modern Boeing E3 AWAC aircraft. It may have been wiser to adapt/modify these larger aircraft and extend their role to include maritime detection. I do realise that these are based on the elderly 707, although it's newer than the ancient Comet (our first commercial jet airliner  :o ).
It's understandable that the UK should want to have a specialised maritime surveillance plane.

BA Systems and many other contractors have sucked a huge amount of money, over the years to keep this hunter forever mighty. The government have been incrementally led into literally rebuilding a flawed replica based on a design well past it's sell-by-date. Looking back over this saga it was bound to end in tears.

Ministers are guided by 'experts' and many other professionals. The MOD is the hub for all air land and sea procurement and a govt minister fronts their budget - God help them. The events of the last 20 years could support a general conclusion that the MOD is  quite dysfunctional and incompetent in dealing with contractors and that the civil servants and military personnel involved are equally, gullible and naive.  {:-{
 
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Circlip

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 09:28:10 AM »

Another defense drain plugged. Wonder how much longer it's going to take the MOD to realise that there isn't a money tree? The public have been paying far too much for too long for their whims and fancies.

  Regards  Ian.
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pugwash

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 10:51:22 AM »

Ian I agree with you about the MOD wasting money but You can hardly call it a whim and a fancy to want a good, possibly the best ASW and surveillance
capability -  lets give the fleet some protection since they have removed the Carriers for the moment.  Don't forget as well as their other
capability they have a good anti-ship  potential with the Harpoon missiles they can carry.
Geoff
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Circlip

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 11:31:11 AM »

Nimrod suffered from the virus that every other bit of ground breaking British technology has Geoff. Get the flaming thing on the road instead of "Hang on, we'll just add this" and "what if".

  With a new ball pein hammer and a good rivetting block, we may just be in time to save it's predecessor. Does it still have a giant spark plug sticking out of the roof?? "20,000 rivets flying in close formation"

   Regards  Ian

   
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tigertiger

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2011, 11:54:22 AM »

If I dare to chip in my tupennyworth on this emotive topic.


I used to work as a consultant on government projects.
I think Maggie was a main driver to outsourcing to consultants.

One reason I was uncomfortable doing this work. Even consultant engineers are under pressure to not find a solution, but to seek the best possible solution for the job. This means that doing/completing the job is secondary to extending the contract to find perfection.

All the government contracts I was involved with ended up costing double the original cost. Why?
Because if the job needed a million quid (with all contractors tenders coming within 10% either way), a pencil pusher would go through the fine detail and whittle away needed functionality. End result would be a contract for half a million. But as the contract progressed the needed functionality had to be re-inserted. And so the job ended up costing according to the original bid. But twice the amount the contract was let for.

Different topic now.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is very sad that the Nimrod has gone, same for the new Navy ships. But can the taxpayers still afford them?

Why should the UK spend billions re-inventing the wheel. If the US has a functioning AWACS that is cheaper to buy, than develop out own, then buy it.
As a kid I remember that gov't would only buy British. British cop cars and ambulance. British military vehicles including trucks. British cars for government officers, PM, etc. Those days have long gone.
We have European made truck in the army. The Eurofighter, and helicopter. Police drive BMWs (who won the war?).

Too much money has been wasted on jingoism. The UK economy is in a poor state of health. Gestures of national pride and nationalism are for when a country is on the up, not on its uppers.

Sorry if this offends, but tax and government spending is an issue if there are fewer people able to pay higher taxes.
One of the reasons we British had to give up the empire is that we could not longer afford to run it. Britain can perhaps no longer afford to be the world's policeman, plodding the beat with our US buddies. We have been punching above our weight for too long and our body (the economy and the taxpayer) can no longer afford it.

I could go on about the likelihood of being invaded by a European neighbour. Unlikely, the threats to our security today are different, and perhaps a military response is not the solution. We live in a very different world order. The biggest threats to our economy are not related to owning overseas territories that need to be defended. They are related to global trade.

My 2 cents.

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tjones27

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2011, 12:07:37 PM »

Just a comment on the usefulness of the Nimrod and the big gap they cause in the UK's capabilities. yesterday there was a Tornado GR4 that went into the sea just off the coast of Scotland. thankfully the pilot and the nav, managed to bang out in time. but there where SAR helicopters and Boats that had to track down their PLB. the first thing that would have happened would be to get a nimrod airbourne and locate the crew. luckily it was quite close to Scotland. now had this happened further out to sea how long would it take to use a SAR heli, or scramble a US AWACS to locate the crew.

by scrapping the Nimrod not only have we caused a massive gap that would protect our Trident Subs, but what about missing at sea. who will we ask to do that, the US? what if they have a higher priority task to do with their Air Force. the scrappage of the Nimrod, the Harrier and the Carrier have in my mind been pushed far too quickly and to abruptly without actually consulting and thinking of the knock on effects its going to have on the rest of the fleet.

the problem is that we have in-experienced people making all the decisions.

example. DR Liam Fox?!?!?! {:-{  a Former Doctor. how has he got the knowledge and experience of the Armed Forces to Be Defence secretary. would you not want someone who knows what they are talking about. not jsut a paperpusher and number cruncher. anybody can look at figures and go. well that costs too much lets get rid of that, oh and thats ok so we will keep that!!!

But either way whats happened will affect everyone even future generations.   

just for info. why are we in Afghanistan. has it got anything to do with the estimated 3 Trillion Dollars worth of Minerals. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm <*<
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nhp651

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 12:48:01 PM »

carefull, TT.....

don't these government secrets you are letting us all in on come under the Official Secrets Act, lol......hate to see you banged up for a while........

oh well, at least we could look forward to a bone model ship or two by the time you get out, {-) {-) {-) {-)
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Dekan

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 03:13:48 PM »

They are talking about selling all the trees now... Every Thing Must Go all part of the UK fire sale that started with our utilites... The real problems will start when theres nothing left to cancel or flog off....Sadly that point draws ever closer 

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Shipmate60

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 04:51:04 PM »

It is so easy to knock the MoD, but let me ask the knockers a few questions?
How exactly do you set the specification for something that doesn't exist yet, is beyond the present technology, update it as required and provide servicing and spares for the next 25 yrs.
All this on something that isn't possible to make yet.
Yes we can go the US route so we lose our own capability and have to rely on other countries to supply.

Bob
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Bryan Young

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 05:21:46 PM »

Just about all the previous posts on this topic have focussed on the political aspects of this nations defence capability. Fair enough. But there is another and rather major adjunct to all this.
Time and time again we exhorted by whichever political party is in government to "export or die". All well and good if you actually have something to "export". With the exception of a few (admittedly "world class") niche manufacturers, what, exactly, can the UK now build/make that the rest of the world can't either do for itself or buy cheaper elsewhere?
It really is a truism that a successful and prospering nation is built on a solid industrial base and not something as ephemeral as the so-called "financial" or "service" so-called industries.
Any country needs self sustainability...something our well suited but ignorant politicians seem to have either ignored or never grasped in the first place. BY.
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Notes from a simple seaman

regiment

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 05:26:01 PM »

hello tiger tiger i agree with every thing you wrote but remember we the BRITISH were on our uppers in 1939 we got out of that ok and if the people of the uk have the SPRIT of  that time we will get off our uppers once again as for the nimrod when i was at RAF WYTON WE HAD THE OLD NIMROD CANNOT REMEMBER THE PROPER NAME  and as for the old shack spent many hours flying in them  so come you BRITISH lets get on with the job of getting this country great again and shoot all strikers (Oh dear should not have said that )  where is the delete button on strike iwill try and do my bit but at 80 slowing down a bit
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Bryan Young

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 05:44:25 PM »

hello tiger tiger i agree with every thing you wrote but remember we the BRITISH were on our uppers in 1939 we got out of that ok and if the people of the uk have the SPRIT of  that time we will get off our uppers once again as for the nimrod when i was at RAF WYTON WE HAD THE OLD NIMROD CANNOT REMEMBER THE PROPER NAME  and as for the old shack spent many hours flying in them  so come you BRITISH lets get on with the job of getting this country great again and shoot all strikers (Oh dear should not have said that )  where is the delete button on strike iwill try and do my bit but at 80 slowing down a bit
? not a very coherent argument, Regiment. BY.
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regiment

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 06:46:25 PM »

i was not arguing just speaking my mind  but tiger tiger is still right we ore on our uppers like it or not
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Perkasaman2

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2011, 08:21:03 PM »

I now tend to take the general view that our whole society has slid into a 'blame game' culture. We desperately need  'fixit'.
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Nordsee

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 08:31:24 PM »

If I dare to chip in my tupennyworth on this emotive topic.


I used to work as a consultant on government projects.
I think Maggie was a main driver to outsourcing to consultants.

One reason I was uncomfortable doing this work. Even consultant engineers are under pressure to not find a solution, but to seek the best possible solution for the job. This means that doing/completing the job is secondary to extending the contract to find perfection.

All the government contracts I was involved with ended up costing double the original cost. Why?
Because if the job needed a million quid (with all contractors tenders coming within 10% either way), a pencil pusher would go through the fine detail and whittle away needed functionality. End result would be a contract for half a million. But as the contract progressed the needed functionality had to be re-inserted. And so the job ended up costing according to the original bid. But twice the amount the contract was let for.

Different topic now.
I wholeheartedly agree that it is very sad that the Nimrod has gone, same for the new Navy ships. But can the taxpayers still afford them?

Why should the UK spend billions re-inventing the wheel. If the US has a functioning AWACS that is cheaper to buy, than develop out own, then buy it.
As a kid I remember that gov't would only buy British. British cop cars and ambulance. British military vehicles including trucks. British cars for government officers, PM, etc. Those days have long gone.
We have European made truck in the army. The Eurofighter, and helicopter. Police drive BMWs (who won the war?).

Too much money has been wasted on jingoism. The UK economy is in a poor state of health. Gestures of national pride and nationalism are for when a country is on the up, not on its uppers.

Sorry if this offends, but tax and government spending is an issue if there are fewer people able to pay higher taxes.
One of the reasons we British had to give up the empire is that we could not longer afford to run it. Britain can perhaps no longer afford to be the world's policeman, plodding the beat with our US buddies. We have been punching above our weight for too long and our body (the economy and the taxpayer) can no longer afford it.

I could go on about the likelihood of being invaded by a European neighbour. Unlikely, the threats to our security today are different, and perhaps a military response is not the solution. We live in a very different world order. The biggest threats to our economy are not related to owning overseas territories that need to be defended. They are related to global trade.

My 2 cents.


Just as a matter of interest. It is against German Federal Law for Police, Armed services etc to use anything other than German built vehicles. There was a panic a few years ago as the Opels used by some police were found to be built in Belgium , however they managed to cobble them together with enough German bits to qualify the rule.
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Nordsee

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 08:37:13 PM »

According to an Advert for Boeing,shown on CNN, they invented the Harrier, Quote" We even invented an aircraft that can fly backwards!!!" Illustrated with a short clip of a US Marine Harrier doing just that trick. Trouble is, lots of people believe that too.
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Dekan

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2011, 10:18:15 AM »

My turn for a rant I think... :} Manufacturing is too slow a way to make money, for the likes of the get rich quick mentality of the people that run our county..Money is god.

Nimrod, as already said, will be replaced by something American, which will sit in a hanger until we can get to work with Rolls Royce engines and some out dated UK made Radar system. Just like the helicopters we bought

When they sell our woodlands off it will be for the short term profit of  a few... IMO it's nothing to do with saving the county... its just like the Olympic's another opportunity to make some money for consultants and the like, which may or many not, be run by politicians,ex politicians or their cronies..

Sadly this country has become one of the most corrupt countries on the planet...and nobody seems to care... :(( Lets face it the Very Rich have done very nicely out of the  great Banking Crisis Swindle ok2
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funtimefrankie

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2011, 10:50:50 AM »

and shoot all strikers

I  thought that's the sort of attiude we were fighting against in 1939..    round up people you don't like and put them in "work" camps, then the final solution????
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2011, 11:25:12 AM »


Lets not go down that avenue here please - Admin   :police:
 
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dodgy geezer

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2011, 12:00:45 PM »

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Dekan

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Re: NIMROD THE MIGHTY HUNTER
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2011, 12:37:53 PM »

A G K Chesterton essay refers...
How true.... He knows The price of everything but the value of nothing ;)
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