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Author Topic: Upgrade Help Neede  (Read 11868 times)

martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2007, 09:57:24 AM »

Wicked Simon im glad your pleased with the engine let us know how she performs in the boat,i bet she will be fast now but id take her steady for a tank or two first, bench testing isnt the same as actually running in a boat.Next youll be having a go at building one like me, if you fancy it let me know i have some cool plans for my deep v and shes a beuty check my thread out for new pics.by the way mate thats one big boat youve ordered what power plant you going to use for it? a modded zen or a qd?.
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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2007, 11:27:43 AM »

Hi Martin,

Zenohah 26 cc petrol with water cooling and a tuned pipe to begin with. Should do 40+ ish so that will do for starters.

See how we get on first and go from there!

Regards
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2007, 12:36:40 PM »

they have some good deals from usa and wong kong on zens at the moment !!,you can even get a modded one pretty good price too.id say for a 60" boat your gonna need a modded zen to push it fast ,i know a cpl guys have big boats and they run zens one has a stock one and the other a modded one and the speed diff is big.what prop you planning on using for it?p 275 or 280 are good choices or an octura similar size prop maybe a x482?.Glenn has a big miami hull he should be able to help more than me.but a big hull needs big power to push it and a stock zen will struggle to go really fast ,a lot depends on the weight i guess.isnt the makara a copy of the apache hull?.i also think a guy from the uk who uses rcu has one or did and he ran a math 35 in it and a sikk in his apache and had similar results speed wise ,he ran a 3 bladed octura prop 470/3with the sikk i beleive.if you go with a stock zen im sure it will push it well just not fast!!if you havent allready bought the engine id consider getting a modded one from the states.unless you can afford dave marles zen 7 as i think thats what glenn has in his big boat!!.
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2007, 08:48:55 PM »

Hi Simon and welcome to OMRA :D
As Martin says, the Makara is a BIG boat so, depending on which type of engine you want, it's got to be a CMB 90 or a Zenoah.  For starting out form scratch, I would go for the Zen (bite your tongue, Danny)(in joke between Martin and me, sorry) as it will work out cheaper, I think - although I've just seen Dave's pipe prices so I ain't sure :o
Last year in the OMRA championships, there were 20 competitors in 'C' class (90 glow) and 33 in 'D' class (petrol up to 50cc) so the petrol boats are gaining in popularity. Nowadays, they are easy (ish) to set up and cheap to run but all the fittings and stuff can be expensive although probably not as expensive as a 90 (but the 90 will be faster).
Glad you like the STS.  I look forward to a video of it running.
See you at the races
Danny
                                                                                                                             
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glennb2006

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2007, 05:56:39 AM »

But there are plenty of CMB 90's cropping up on auction sites, some with pipes included. Have seen a few around for 125 - 150 including pipe. Only bogey is the carting all the starting gear around, plus they cost a bit to run.

I take it Danny that 33 petrol boats do not run in the same race?  :o

I guess if they do there are 33 excuses for me not finishing!!

Glenn
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Needed
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2007, 08:57:22 AM »

Danny,

Thanks for the comments, the Makara will be running a stock 26cc Zenohah on an outdrive, with tuned pipe. I am reliably informed that it should do about 40 mph. I hope! They seem quite popular in the D class and a good starter boat i hope.

Its due to arrive on Tuesday and then i need to start screwing it all together and then a couple of months playing/setting up etc before racing. Don't want to embarrass myself.

The cat is over with Andy Payne having the flywheel re machined to make it true and he is modifying a tuned pipe  for the new STS so no playing for a while.

I will have to play with my new buggy instead, oh well!

I look forward to meeting you on the racing scene.

Regards

Simon
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2007, 04:01:55 PM »

Simon depending on what drive your talking about id reconsider and just go with a strut set up, the outdrives rob quite a bit of power from the motor.a simple flex connected to a stub shaft running in a strut like mine will be faster.dont forget shops try to sell things id get a basic strud and an offset rudder,if however by a drive you mean a stinger? then you should be ok .outdrives are for big engines or at least fully modded zens from what ive read .with a stock zen you will lose a lot of rpm with an outdrive.check out rcu for lots of great tips on setting up your boat and ask what they think the best set up would be for that hull,like i say its basicly an apache hull just a diff name very popular in the states.that said it is an old hull so wont be the fastest boat out there.
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2007, 04:41:23 PM »

Simon
A couple of the Bristol lads have been experimenting with outdrives (for about 2 years).  They look good but do suck power with the drive train.  They are also a pig to set up properly for steering.  The boats go great until you try to turn :o
Go with the 'standard' setup of skeg, tube and flexi.  It will be cheaper and more reliable.  Have a look on the photos on the OMRA website
http://www.omra-uk.org/index2.htm
When you get it built, don't worry about embarassing yourself, some of us do it quite often ;D  As long as you can keep in a straight line thats all you need. The faster boats will drive round you, course, if your the fastest then you can just bide your time and overtake when you feel like it (well that's the theory anyway) ::)  You'll be more than welcome at any race and, if you ask, others will offer advice (often conflicting) and help you set up.  The only occasional one who goes with the 'been there, done that' attitude doesn't seem to get much help when needed ??? ??? ;D

Glenn
Yes all 33 in 'D' class AND 20 in the 'C' class all have a jolly time racing in the same heat without any collisions;D ;D
(For those who are taking me seriously - it's a lie!  We are limited to 12 boats per heat).

Danny
 
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2007, 07:45:48 PM »

Danny,

Are you suggesting i avoid the surface piercing outdrive and stick to the submersed drives?

My cat runs an outdrive and i seem to get on ok with that.

I am not sure that the Makara comes with submersed, more info please?

Regards ???
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2007, 09:22:06 PM »

Simon
Sorry, I thought you were talking about Z drives (sometimes called "outdrives"), which are model versions of the full sized ones, where the engine is connected straight through the transom to a 90 deg shaft and then down to another 90 deg shaft to which the prop is attached.  The whole unit is steerable.  It looks a bit like the bottom bit of an outboard motor ???

I use surface drive, very similar to your cat. It will be fine on the Makara which I don't think was designed for submerged drive anyway.

Sorry about the confusion

Danny
(If it's still as clear as mud - I'll try again) ;D
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2007, 10:52:32 PM »

Simon i think your confusing a stinger drive with what we call and outdrive , a stinger is fine its just as good as a strut set up but the strut is more stable as you can get the prop a bit further back from the transome .Which actually makes the boat longer thus more stable!!.Heres a pic of a stinger  and a strut and also an outdrive.The outdrive steers as Danny says but they can still be surface drives they do lose you a lot of power though and are more for scale looks than speed.For all out speed the simple strut set up is the best way as Danny says although the stinger is probably as good too.Hope this has cleared up any confusion .
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2007, 09:27:59 AM »

A picture tells a thousand words ;D Thanks Martin
Are the 3 boats yours?
Danny
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2007, 04:33:56 PM »

no Danny not all mine apart from the first one with home made rudder and standoff. just pics ive aquired from research as ive been reading up on these boats ok i nicked em lol!!.
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2007, 07:15:48 PM »

Danny/Martin,

I have always and will always avoid z drivers, or inboard/outboard as i call it. I served an apprentaship on marine engines and have personal experiences of my dads boat, a Searay 270 Sundancer in Florida.

Absoulte nightmare! Enough said.

Chased up the enw boat today, will be shipped tomorrow so i should get it Wednesday. Then hust a matter of screwing together and get your feet wet!

I will post a thread on my builds when i get it!
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2007, 07:21:08 PM »

Forgot to add in my last post.

"Too clutch or not to clutch?"

Answers on a postcard, with pro's and cons please?

Regards

Simon
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2007, 10:10:42 PM »

Simon
You should consider a clutch ONLY after you've got all the essentials installed - cigar lighter, CD player, cruise control, etc ;D
Danny
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2007, 10:08:16 AM »

a clutch is handy for big boats but like danny said for racing its not needed,i prefer a clutch for a fun boat its easier and safer if you got kids around when your playing.i dont think any of the guys racing will have a clutch and clutches for zens are expensive so id leave it out.
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glennb2006

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2007, 10:31:16 AM »

No clutch:

Negatives:

Something else to go wrong
Costly
Heavy
Need a water pump on engine

Positives:

Easier launching
Err....

Glenn
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2007, 01:10:03 PM »

you dont need a water pump if you run a clutch unless you plan on idling in the margins for long periods.i know matt off rcu (justadwatta) runs clutches in most if not all his big boats and doesnt allways use a water pump.the clutch is just handy for bringing the boat back to shore and also for launching especially if its a big boat and your on your own!!.me personally i prefer a clutch but its up to the individual i guess.
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2007, 09:48:02 PM »


Boat and fittings have arrived!!! ;D

Need some advise with the drive set up please?

Brass tube, flexi drive, and then rudder!

1. Is the tube fixed to the hull.
2. Should i drill the hole as low as she will go! (You know who!)
3. The rudder has slots for adjustment, i presume. The height adjustment will be very minimal in this case. How much flex is there in the cable?
4. How far offset and at what height should the rudder be mounted? Which side?

Dont even get me started on the engine mount set up!

What have i done!

Please help?

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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2007, 10:54:22 PM »

Siimon, what have you done :o :o ;D
Entered the world of BIG toys ;D  Don't forget, it's supposed to be fun.

So, to start:
I will suggest things in the order I usually build, but as ever you're your own boss ;)

I assume that Paul hasn't sent any set up instructions with the hull.  The first thing to do is phone him up and ask for them.  He should provide them with it.
As there WON'T be a build sheet with it (use nitro sniffers do things the hard way) ;D  you'll have to rely on us motley band for advice :'(

I always lay everything in the bottom of the hull in the approx positions I think it should be and look for any obvious problems.

Before you start you should have - the radio box, the tank and the engine (on it's mounts). This will enable you to see how they will all fit.  The radio box (I make my own because I like a certain style) goes back next to the transom.  This will tell you how far forward the tank (or bag) can go.  Now lay the engine in where you think it should go, and any other bits as near as you can get to the positions they will live in (plastic bag with drive back end, trim tabs and rudder in, clipped to the transom) to give you an idea of weight distribution.  It should, with the top on and all the bits in about the right place, balance about 1/3 of the length from the transom.
Adjust the engine position until you get a decent balance, then mark the position of things inside the hull with a pencil.

The hole for the shaft does go at the bottom of the V, dead centre.  Drill the hole a lot smaller than the tube size and open it up with a round file.  This allows you to get the hole right into the V.  Keep your file level with the inside of the hull. The shaft is going to exit  parallel with the bottom of the hull and as low as possible.

The engine, shaft and skeg are all going to be put in together so that they line up :o 

Has the Makara got stringers up the inside of the hull.  If it has, you can estimate where your engine will be mounted (low as possible but with enough clearance to allow for vibration movement). The angle of the engine should be so that the output shaft aims directly at a point halfway between the engine and the shaft hole in the transom (remember the shaft tube is going to be bent soon).  Now you need a piece of 1/4" diam straight bar about 2" long (I assume you're using a 1/4" flexishaft).  This is used in your engine coupler to align the shaft tube.  Also stock up on plasticine which is used to support things until they're correctly aligned.

Part 2 tomorrow.

Danny

Ps Don't suppose you live anywhere near the Midlands, we could do a photo build (it's quicker than writing it down) ;D ;D
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2007, 08:39:37 AM »

Danny to the rescue! :D

Hopefully the time spent mucking about and modifying my cat will hold me in good stead for this one!

You must know Paul, he promised some basic instructions but non arrived. I had a play with all the bits briefly last night. Just looks like bags of bits, definite lack of hardware, nuts bolts etc. I have compiled a list of about 20 questions for Paul this morning, so i hope he is in a patient mood. ???

Got all the bits i think, apart from hardware, off to the local diy store for a load of stainless and nylocks i guess! Engine looks tiny, might have to go for a bigger one to fill some of the void!

Fuel tank is a solid plastic type, 1 litre.

All the bits get lost in the hull, not used to having so much room. No stringers, all open plan!

As far as engine mounting is concerned? Is the position note denoted by the length of the flexidrive (yes she is 1/4) i assume that this cannot or should not be cut down? The prop tube will have to be cut down as it is too long.

Clear on the hole thing, where should i mount the auto bailer in relation to the tube? Does it matter, (just low i assume?) Is the tube glued in?

Did i pick up that the shaft runs parallel to the hull and then the pipe is kinked/bent upwards to meet the engine? Is that right?

Unfortunately in this case i am at a dissadvantage not living in the Midlands, i am in Essex XR3i country, but from Herts originally, i have got more than the normal two brain sells associated with the locals, no harm intended! :o

The picture build will help me out!

Regards

Simon
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martno1fan

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2007, 11:48:47 AM »

hi simon yes the tube is bent upwards do it with the flex in the tube and do it very slowly what i did was get the boat balanced first this is done by fitting the hardware on the hull then radio gear, box etc then balance the boat on a broom handle 25 to 35% from the tramsome is good.once you find the balance point mark where the engine needs to go then you have the engine on a slight downward angle to meet the flex cable bend the tube up to meet it.you may need to cut the flex to lengh like i did.to do this use a dremmel cutting wheel or angle grinder.i used a larger diam tube to slide the flex tube into so i can remove the flex tube if needed ,the larger tube is only 4" long and is glassed into the hull at the transome and is inserted through the hole but flush with the outside.i used a bracket and a wooden block glassed into the hull to hold the engine end of the flex tube using nyloc nuts to hold it fast been carefull not to kink the tube.by the way the zens look small but at 4 hp or upto 7 they are more than capable of moving that boat faster than you will ever need in an offshore race beleive me!!.you can get round cutting the flex by moving the engine about if you have room which it sounds like you do.if you do have to cut it wrap tape and a cpl of zip ties either side of where your going to cut it and do it slow as to not get the flex too hot .the ties stop the fibres unwinding.
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omra85

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2007, 08:53:04 PM »

Cor Simon - Martin in shining armour as well :D  This is your lucky forum.

The photos of Marts show the tube angle. Unlike a submerged drive, all of the tube is protected by the hull, so even if it's gets hit, it won't damage the tube, so the outer tube is a matter personal taste. Once my tube is in, it stays in. ;D
The self bailer is mounted low to the left of the shaft (as you look at the transom) about 8 - 10mm from the shaft. Glass it in with about 10mm sticking out (if it's flush, the back pressure from the transom draws water INTO the bailer which never seal perfectly) I do all of my internal fixing with Isopon P40, the one with glass fibres in it.  Don't put too much hardener in it or it goes too brittle and don't use it too thickly as the heat and shrinkage can distort the hull.

Don't be afraid to cut the flexi, they are never the right length, as Mart says, use a 1mm cutting disc in a Dremel and make sure the flexi is secured in something soft (not steel vice jaws, fibre or wood is OK) almost to the cutting point. Then GENTLY does it ;)  Leave the flexi cutting until last when you have the engine and tube properly mounted and solid.  Leave about 12 - 15mm between the end of your engine collet and the start of the tube.  When you start greasing it, after runs, you squirt a LITTLE grease into the transom end, and then use the flexi to push the grease up to 'coat' the inside of the tube.  If you've left enough room, you can put your finger over the inner of the tube to stop the grease being pushed straight into the boat.

Have you decided where your pipe is going, the weight distribution will vary depending on whether you have the pipe running up the side of the radio box (under deck) or round to the centre of the hull and over the radio box.  I believe some of the Makaras have the pipe coming round 90deg and then up through the side of the deck, but I don't think they look very good.  All depends on which manifold you use and how you want it to look.

I used to race Multi a lot round your neck of the woods, Stevenage, Basildon, Dagenham. 
From your accent I would say you're from either Harlow or Basildon ;D ;D

BW
Danny
 
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2772e

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Re: Upgrade Help Neede
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2007, 09:18:30 PM »

Hi Danny/Mart,

Thanks for the info, i have rubbed down the hull and applied the first layers of new paint tonight.

Tomorrow my sticker mas is coming over to see me to measure up etc. so the weekend is going to be with the boat.

I had a long chat with Paul this morning and cleared up allot of the points, 1 strange item though. He said mount the prop about 8-10mm stb of centre and then mount the bailer in the centre. Apparently helps it all run straight. Never seen that before, any ideas. I guess he should know he builds and races them. Your thoughts please.

I will get some pictures over the weekend and post them, you can both point me from them!

And no i am not from Essex, just residing hear for the last few years and the forthcoming future. Tiptree in fact, the place the quality Jam comes from. Originally from a small place called Brookmans Park, a couple of miles south of Welwyn Garden City/Stevenage

Andy Payne is about 2 miles down the road so very handy for hints/tips machining and tuned pipes.

The windamer thing sounds fun, when and what?

Regards

Simon ;D
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